Troubles Amnesty Pleases No One

hollandia

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Today, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced plans for an effective amnesty for unprosecuted crimes carried out during the troubles.


Whilst it can be argued - much as the SoS is doing - that they're making explicit what is implicit in the outworkings in the GFA, this seems to have just about annoyed everyone, from victims to politicians.

It appears that this is entirely designed to please no one other than the true blue Tory Colonel Blimp types who just cannot abide seeing "our boys" hauled up in front of the beak, and does precisely nothing to deal with the very many outstanding legacy issues that affect all communities and none in NI.

What's most troubling, however, is the precedent that is now being set. It appears to be the case that if a member of the armed forces breaches the law in the course of duty, they are exempted from prosecution. Bear in mind that this is designed primarily to protect UK troops that served in Iraq and Afghanistan (*these are far away places - they do things differently there), and that the ramifications for NI were just not considered, and we have this piece of legislation now as an afterthought.

This may not trouble the Man on the Clapham Omnibus all that much, until such time as the armed forces are required to deal with disturbances in yer actual Clapham. Which given the current febrile mood of English political life is not that outlandish a thought.
 

Cruimh

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Today, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced plans for an effective amnesty for unprosecuted crimes carried out during the troubles.


Whilst it can be argued - much as the SoS is doing - that they're making explicit what is implicit in the outworkings in the GFA, this seems to have just about annoyed everyone, from victims to politicians.

It appears that this is entirely designed to please no one other than the true blue Tory Colonel Blimp types who just cannot abide seeing "our boys" hauled up in front of the beak, and does precisely nothing to deal with the very many outstanding legacy issues that affect all communities and none in NI.

What's most troubling, however, is the precedent that is now being set. It appears to be the case that if a member of the armed forces breaches the law in the course of duty, they are exempted from prosecution. Bear in mind that this is designed primarily to protect UK troops that served in Iraq and Afghanistan (*these are far away places - they do things differently there), and that the ramifications for NI were just not considered, and we have this piece of legislation now as an afterthought.

This may not trouble the Man on the Clapham Omnibus all that much, until such time as the armed forces are required to deal with disturbances in yer actual Clapham. Which given the current febrile mood of English political life is not that outlandish a thought.
It was so obvious that the ground was being prepared for Republican and Loyalist Amnesty by the pursuit of members of the security forces.
 
May 21, 2021
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Today, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced plans for an effective amnesty for unprosecuted crimes carried out during the troubles.


Whilst it can be argued - much as the SoS is doing - that they're making explicit what is implicit in the outworkings in the GFA, this seems to have just about annoyed everyone, from victims to politicians.

It appears that this is entirely designed to please no one other than the true blue Tory Colonel Blimp types who just cannot abide seeing "our boys" hauled up in front of the beak, and does precisely nothing to deal with the very many outstanding legacy issues that affect all communities and none in NI.

What's most troubling, however, is the precedent that is now being set. It appears to be the case that if a member of the armed forces breaches the law in the course of duty, they are exempted from prosecution. Bear in mind that this is designed primarily to protect UK troops that served in Iraq and Afghanistan (*these are far away places - they do things differently there), and that the ramifications for NI were just not considered, and we have this piece of legislation now as an afterthought.

This may not trouble the Man on the Clapham Omnibus all that much, until such time as the armed forces are required to deal with disturbances in yer actual Clapham. Which given the current febrile mood of English political life is not that outlandish a thought.
Strictly speaking with in the context of these islands however, this amnesty is about to absolve all parties to the conflict and in some sense lend legitimacy to the paramilitaries just to cover up the crimes of the British army in Ireland.

The consequences to this will be extremely interesting in the years to come. I feel sorry for the victims, they'll now never either get retributive or restorative justice just for the sake of a British cover up. This is disgraceful on many levels.
 

Cruimh

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Strictly speaking with in the context of these islands however, this amnesty is about to absolve all parties to the conflict and in some sense lend legitimacy to the paramilitaries just to cover up the crimes of the British army in Ireland.

The consequences to this will be extremely interesting in the years to come. I feel sorry for the victims, they'll now never either get retributive or restorative justice just for the sake of a British cover up. This is disgraceful on many levels.
It can be spun in different ways. British cover up or terrorist appeasement?

We were here 16 years ago


Sinn Féin initially welcomed it when it was published by the British government but now oppose on the grounds it will not only give an amnesty to IRA members but also to any soldiers or police officers who committed murder during 30 years of violence.
 
May 21, 2021
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It can be spun in different ways. British cover up or terrorist appeasement?

We were here 16 years ago

Let's face it, this is a political stunt by the Torys as a means to salve the oh so sensitive feelings of English nationalists. I'd argue for restorative justice via a truth and reconciliation process, others may argue for retributive justice through the courts(2 years max as per GFA), but the Torys are just shitting all over everyone for the sake of letting BA murderers off the hook, not to mention the protection of upper echelon types such as Gen Mike Jackson et al. The victims of course are just forgotten in all this which is the greatest insult of all.

Also, let's focus on the optics of this, a chummy English minister fucking around in the operation of justice in NI so as to appease English voters...Boris Johnson might as well drive around Belfast calling everyone a cunt.
 

midlander12

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Today, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced plans for an effective amnesty for unprosecuted crimes carried out during the troubles.


Whilst it can be argued - much as the SoS is doing - that they're making explicit what is implicit in the outworkings in the GFA, this seems to have just about annoyed everyone, from victims to politicians.

It appears that this is entirely designed to please no one other than the true blue Tory Colonel Blimp types who just cannot abide seeing "our boys" hauled up in front of the beak, and does precisely nothing to deal with the very many outstanding legacy issues that affect all communities and none in NI.

What's most troubling, however, is the precedent that is now being set. It appears to be the case that if a member of the armed forces breaches the law in the course of duty, they are exempted from prosecution. Bear in mind that this is designed primarily to protect UK troops that served in Iraq and Afghanistan (*these are far away places - they do things differently there), and that the ramifications for NI were just not considered, and we have this piece of legislation now as an afterthought.

This may not trouble the Man on the Clapham Omnibus all that much, until such time as the armed forces are required to deal with disturbances in yer actual Clapham. Which given the current febrile mood of English political life is not that outlandish a thought.
Leaving aside the possible future implications (which I agree are worrying to say the least), I take it this covers all sides i.e. IRA as well?

Quite honestly I would have been in favour of a general amnesty, coupled with some sort of truth commission, pretty much from the start of rhe peace process. I'm not clear if this is what we are talking about with today's announcement.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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Let's face it, this is a political stunt by the Torys as a means to salve the oh so sensitive feelings of English nationalists. I'd argue for restorative justice via a truth and reconciliation process, others may argue for retributive justice through the courts(2 years max as per GFA), but the Torys are just shitting all over everyone for the sake of letting BA murderers off the hook, not to mention the protection of upper echelon types such as Gen Mike Jackson et al. The victims of course are just forgotten in all this which is the greatest insult of all.

Also, let's focus on the optics of this, a chummy English minister fucking around in the operation of justice in NI so as to appease English voters...Boris Johnson might as well drive around Belfast calling everyone a cunt.
This also provides the Tories with a "line in the sand / the past is the past" policy. It is a dereliction of duty.

But, as I have said before, getting rid of lose ends, we'll, that's handy if the endgame is getting rid of NI. My "NI as a foundling, dumped at the door of the Dail and the EU", has another enabler completed.

Watch the NI protocol.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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Leaving aside the possible future implications (which I agree are worrying to say the least), I take it this covers all sides i.e. IRA as well?

Quite honestly I would have been in favour of a general amnesty, coupled with some sort of truth commission, pretty much from the start of rhe peace process. I'm not clear if this is what we are talking about with today's announcement.
If disclosure and co-operation with the truth commission led to an amnesty, fair enough. That could be cathartic.

Another arguement is that knowing who killed or maimed your family, when their family are people you work with or live near would re-open old wounds.

One can argue that the army should be held to a higher accountability. And that it is reasonable to point out how criminal some actions were.
 

hollandia

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Leaving aside the possible future implications (which I agree are worrying to say the least), I take it this covers all sides i.e. IRA as well?

Quite honestly I would have been in favour of a general amnesty, coupled with some sort of truth commission, pretty much from the start of rhe peace process. I'm not clear if this is what we are talking about with today's announcement.
It covers all troubles related incidents that have not been prosecuted to date, and as far as I am aware will include civil cases. There's no truth commission that I know of planned, though something like that could come out in the wash.

This also raises the prospect of two tier justice - some people have had justice served and people involved have often served decades in jail, whilst another half will not see justice served and those involved will suffer no ill consequences.

Messy all around.
 

mac tíre

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The Tory party never really take the views of people in the north into account and rule as they see fit. We've all followed and seen it intimately with regards to Brexit and the Protocol. We've seen it with this too. Not only by today but, through that announcement) also the numerous broken agrreements successive British governments have left in their wake (and not just on this issue).

But it's not just the political parties (Labour are just as guilty). For the most part, the British public will shrug their shoulders - didn't "all that" happen "back then" and "over there"?

And the British media appear to be taking it in their stride too, despite its significance and the issues involved. The story barely features or is buried deep on some websites.

It's almost as if they don't give one fuck about here. Which I have always known. And perhaps you too.

And you can bet your bottom Euro that quite a few of the middle of the road status quo-ers have seen it too.

Johnston and his gang may well be satisfying rabid backbenchers and Colonel Blimps now. But this may well have unforseen (?) consequences in the longer term.
 

hollandia

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The Tory party never really take the views of people in the north into account and rule as they see fit. We've all followed and seen it intimately with regards to Brexit and the Protocol. We've seen it with this too. Not only by today but, through that announcement) also the numerous broken agrreements successive British governments have left in their wake (and not just on this issue).

But it's not just the political parties (Labour are just as guilty). For the most part, the British public will shrug their shoulders - didn't "all that" happen "back then" and "over there"?

And the British media appear to be taking it in their stride too, despite its significance and the issues involved. The story barely features or is buried deep on some websites.

It's almost as if they don't give one fuck about here. Which I have always known. And perhaps you too.

And you can bet your bottom Euro that quite a few of the middle of the road status quo-ers have seen it too.

Johnston and his gang may well be satisfying rabid backbenchers and Colonel Blimps now. But this may well have unforseen (?) consequences in the longer term.
I don't think unforeseen. Entirely foreseen when the wheels come off.
 

Derryman

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The Tory party never really take the views of people in the north into account and rule as they see fit. We've all followed and seen it intimately with regards to Brexit and the Protocol. We've seen it with this too. Not only by today but, through that announcement) also the numerous broken agrreements successive British governments have left in their wake (and not just on this issue).

But it's not just the political parties (Labour are just as guilty). For the most part, the British public will shrug their shoulders - didn't "all that" happen "back then" and "over there"?

And the British media appear to be taking it in their stride too, despite its significance and the issues involved. The story barely features or is buried deep on some websites.

It's almost as if they don't give one fuck about here. Which I have always known. And perhaps you too.

And you can bet your bottom Euro that quite a few of the middle of the road status quo-ers have seen it too.

Johnston and his gang may well be satisfying rabid backbenchers and Colonel Blimps now. But this may well have unforseen (?) consequences in the longer term.
I listened to someone today on the radio,I don't know who, and they believe that this is the Torys edging everyone closer to a border poll.
Get the line drawn under it now for the British courts and offload the problem.
 

seanof

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I listened to someone today on the radio,I don't know who, and they believe that this is the Torys edging everyone closer to a border poll.
Get the line drawn under it now for the British courts and offload the problem.
Possibly. Whatever their real motive, I don't think the Brits are doing this solely to protect their Army. Relatives of victims in England are outraged too https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-40336601.html . It's like parity of disdain for victims.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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Possibly. Whatever their real motive, I don't think the Brits are doing this solely to protect their Army. Relatives of victims in England are outraged too https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-40336601.html . It's like parity of disdain for victims.
That reinforces Derryman's point. If you look at Brexit and other commentary regarding English politics, it is clear that they no longer see themselves as having any moral responsibility towards NI.

That also paints Cameron's poll in a dim light, and makes his otherwise well received Bloody Sunday apology seem very hollow.

Viewed through the lens of no moral responsibility, NI is merely a lose end to be tied up. And Brexit will push it that way more than waiting for demographics to carry a border poll.

Does anyone here really think NI had any relevance in England? May's courtship of the DUP was never meant to happen.
 

mac tíre

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Does anyone here really think NI had any relevance in England? May's courtship of the DUP was never meant to happen.
It has relevance when its votes that count. And has always caused Ireland myriad problems, many of which we are living out today.

Whether it was Randolph Churchill in the 1880s or Theresa May almost 140 years later. And if Johnston had not his 80 seat majority and relied on them, you can be sure he would be grovelling, promising undying love. It's probably their only real use to the Tories.

David Cameron was no different, hosting a drink's party for them in 2014. You could almost argue he led the way for May. And then there was John Major with the UUP. Who eneded up shiting on them by having great craic with the IRA behind the scenes all along.

The Tories would laugh at our idea of FF as devious.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/08/david-cameron-hosts-dup-mps-in-lavish-downing-street-reception
 
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bang bang

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It was so obvious that the ground was being prepared for Republican and Loyalist Amnesty by the pursuit of members of the security forces.
Only a handful of Brit army soldiers spent any time in prison for troubles related killings even then they were quietly released early to rejoin the army.
This is definitely being done to prevent any further prosecutions of soldiers and perhaps more importantly what info could come out in these trials, this was never going to be allowed to happen.
 

mac tíre

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This is definitely being done to prevent any further prosecutions of soldiers and perhaps more importantly what info could come out in these trials, this was never going to be allowed to happen.
This is the thing. The pressure of what has come out of court cases, inquiries, coroner courts (all of which the British government and its agencies have opposed every step of the way) and the unearthing of documents have worried the British establishment.

So much so that they are willing to give every one an amnesty. Imagine what they fear is there (and what might appear) to force them to finally make this move. Obviously that is not news.

The fact they are about to stick a big middle finger up to victims so publically is. At the tail end of the 12th. And all the ongoing shit with the Protocol.

They don't mind using Ireland as a play thing. Always have, it's not just Johnston's government. That gang are just a bit more blatant about it.
 

Statsman

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Today, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced plans for an effective amnesty for unprosecuted crimes carried out during the troubles.


Whilst it can be argued - much as the SoS is doing - that they're making explicit what is implicit in the outworkings in the GFA, this seems to have just about annoyed everyone, from victims to politicians.

It appears that this is entirely designed to please no one other than the true blue Tory Colonel Blimp types who just cannot abide seeing "our boys" hauled up in front of the beak, and does precisely nothing to deal with the very many outstanding legacy issues that affect all communities and none in NI.

What's most troubling, however, is the precedent that is now being set. It appears to be the case that if a member of the armed forces breaches the law in the course of duty, they are exempted from prosecution. Bear in mind that this is designed primarily to protect UK troops that served in Iraq and Afghanistan (*these are far away places - they do things differently there), and that the ramifications for NI were just not considered, and we have this piece of legislation now as an afterthought.

This may not trouble the Man on the Clapham Omnibus all that much, until such time as the armed forces are required to deal with disturbances in yer actual Clapham. Which given the current febrile mood of English political life is not that outlandish a thought.
It strikes me as the inevitable, logical working out of the GFA and I'm surprised that it has taken this long. Politicians of all stripes in the North will tut tut, but for those with past or present links to people who were active in the troubles, and for those who were active themselves, it's probably quietly welcome.
T truth and reconciliation process would be nice, but how many of those in a position to push for one are the least interested in either truth or reconciliation? My one wish is that if we are now to forget the past, then it not be selective amnesia. But it will be., It will.
 

hollandia

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It strikes me as the inevitable, logical working out of the GFA and I'm surprised that it has taken this long. Politicians of all stripes in the North will tut tut, but for those with past or present links to people who were active in the troubles, and for those who were active themselves, it's probably quietly welcome.
T truth and reconciliation process would be nice, but how many of those in a position to push for one are the least interested in either truth or reconciliation? My one wish is that if we are now to forget the past, then it not be selective amnesia. But it will be., It will.
I tend to agree with the thrust of this. What I'd thought would happen was that the troubles would be allowed to wither on the Vine and fade into the folk memory.
What was interesting, this morning, was Baroness O'Loan on Morning Ireland, drawing a link between this and Operation Kenova (the stakeknife investigation) where 28 files are sitting with the DPP and now going nowhere. It appears to me at least that those who continue to pursue the chance of justice, and they represent all sectors of victims (which in most cases they wouldn't have got anyway) have had that last vestige of hope removed from them, in order to protect the reputation of the British Government.
 

Derryman

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I tend to agree with the thrust of this. What I'd thought would happen was that the troubles would be allowed to wither on the Vine and fade into the folk memory.
What was interesting, this morning, was Baroness O'Loan on Morning Ireland, drawing a link between this and Operation Kenova (the stakeknife investigation) where 28 files are sitting with the DPP and now going nowhere. It appears to me at least that those who continue to pursue the chance of justice, and they represent all sectors of victims (which in most cases they wouldn't have got anyway) have had that last vestige of hope removed from them, in order to protect the reputation of the British Government.
Brandon Lewis would like us to believe that this is all about moving on from the troubles.
But anyone with a bit of common sense knows it's about burying the past.
 

hollandia

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Brandon Lewis would like us to believe that this is all about moving on from the troubles.
But anyone with a bit of common sense knows it's about burying the past.
Tbf, moving on does require burying the party to some extent. This just isn't the way to go about it, almost universally pissing people off.
 

Derryman

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Tbf, moving on does require burying the party to some extent. This just isn't the way to go about it, almost universally pissing people off.
I think it is dangerous to Bury the past without processing it. It gets selectively dug up and used to repeat the same old mistakes.
 

snorlax

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It strikes me as the inevitable, logical working out of the GFA and I'm surprised that it has taken this long. Politicians of all stripes in the North will tut tut, but for those with past or present links to people who were active in the troubles, and for those who were active themselves, it's probably quietly welcome.
T truth and reconciliation process would be nice, but how many of those in a position to push for one are the least interested in either truth or reconciliation? My one wish is that if we are now to forget the past, then it not be selective amnesia. But it will be., It will.
This cover up by the Tories reinforces the belief refelected in this post that all sides in the troubles were 'equally at fault'. They quite obviously weren't. The British sowed the seeds of destruction for decades up there, overtly and covertly, and they want to hide the extent of their culpability. The fact that so many in the south still labour under the delusion that it was an equal fight between HMG and Sinn Fein/the IRA just shows how well they've succeeded. But then, we've always had a cohort of our middle classes down here who have looked up to HMG as the respectable actor in the conflict.
 

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I tend to agree with the thrust of this. What I'd thought would happen was that the troubles would be allowed to wither on the Vine and fade into the folk memory.
What was interesting, this morning, was Baroness O'Loan on Morning Ireland, drawing a link between this and Operation Kenova (the stakeknife investigation) where 28 files are sitting with the DPP and now going nowhere. It appears to me at least that those who continue to pursue the chance of justice, and they represent all sectors of victims (which in most cases they wouldn't have got anyway) have had that last vestige of hope removed from them, in order to protect the reputation of the British Government.
The sad fact is that nobody who can actually do anything about it really cares about the victims. In some respects, if the people with power and/or responsibility cared, there wouldn't be as many victims as they are. And no player can be exculpated here.
 

Statsman

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Brandon Lewis would like us to believe that this is all about moving on from the troubles.
But anyone with a bit of common sense knows it's about burying the past.
Lewis is far from being the only one wanting to bury those bits of the past they'd rather not have to face up to. Very far indeed.
 

hollandia

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The sad fact is that nobody who can actually do anything about it really cares about the victims. In some respects, if the people with power and/or responsibility cared, there wouldn't be as many victims as they are. And no player can be exculpated here.
A truth commission would have helped, but it was never going to happen.
 

snorlax

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The sad fact is that nobody who can actually do anything about it really cares about the victims. In some respects, if the people with power and/or responsibility cared, there wouldn't be as many victims as they are. And no player can be exculpated here.
The British government could. But they've decided not to. I suppose the republicans in the north could set up their own inquiries, but hold on, I thought you were all against that sort of thing (when Irish republicans do it).
 

snorlax

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Lewis is far from being the only one wanting to bury those bits of the past they'd rather not have to face up to. Very far indeed.
Why don't you just come out and say it. FWIW, MLM was just on radio saying that she is against any amnesty. I suppose that's not good enough for you though.
 

Statsman

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The British government could. But they've decided not to. I suppose the republicans in the north could set up their own inquiries, but hold on, I thought you were all against that sort of thing (when Irish republicans do it).
The Assembly could.
 

Statsman

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Why don't you just come out and say it. FWIW, MLM was just on radio saying that she is against any amnesty. I suppose that's not good enough for you though.
SF are only one player; the Loyalist paramilitary groups and Unionist parties with ties to them are equally culpable. It's easy to say you oppose something when you know you can't stop it. See Donaldson in Westminster yesterday:

The past is complex and we have always believed that any process to deal with the legacy of our troubled past should be victim-centred. Victims will see these proposals as perpetrator-focused rather than victim-focused and an insult to both the memory of those innocent victims who lost their lives during our Troubles and their families.
The reality is than apart from London, nobody want an amnesty for them'uns.
 

Derryman

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Lewis is far from being the only one wanting to bury those bits of the past they'd rather not have to face up to. Very far indeed.
I know you mean SF , but what you dont seem to understand , is that if the veil were lifted The IRA would be viewed entirely differently in the spotlight of unrestricted truth.
Refer the files mentioned in Hollandias post.
 

Derryman

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Why don't you just come out and say it. FWIW, MLM was just on radio saying that she is against any amnesty. I suppose that's not good enough for you though.
And Michelle O Neill also.
The PIRA and SF have absolutely nothing to lose in a truth and reconciliation process. They and their actions have been under the spotlight for decades. They are more likely to gain from it than lose .
 

Statsman

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I know you mean SF , but what you dont seem to understand , is that if the veil were lifted The IRA would be viewed entirely differently in the spotlight of unrestricted truth.
Refer the files mentioned in Hollandias post.
I guess you missed my later post where I made it explicit that I don't just mean SF.
 

Derryman

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I guess you missed my later post where I made it explicit that I don't just mean SF.
What can possibly be unearthed about SF or the IRA now that has not been already .
It is most likely that some of the atrocities attributed to them will be cast in a much different light.
 

snorlax

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What can possibly be unearthed about SF or the IRA now that has not been already .
It is most likely that some of the atrocities attributed to them will be cast in a much different light.
Yep: witness the Stake-knife case for example.
 

bang bang

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This is the thing. The pressure of what has come out of court cases, inquiries, coroner courts (all of which the British government and its agencies have opposed every step of the way) and the unearthing of documents have worried the British establishment.

So much so that they are willing to give every one an amnesty. Imagine what they fear is there (and what might appear) to force them to finally make this move. Obviously that is not news.

The fact they are about to stick a big middle finger up to victims so publically is. At the tail end of the 12th. And all the ongoing shit with the Protocol.

They don't mind using Ireland as a play thing. Always have, it's not just Johnston's government. That gang are just a bit more blatant about it.
They did look into an amnesty covering state forces only but were told that legally it was a non runner.
I wouldn't trust these people for a minute.....
 
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