There may be trouble ahead: Hungary set to reject budget and COVID recovery scheme

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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They’d need to hurry up and do something Fran.
We have had a hundred years of right wing governments in cahoots with the Church and all the abuses we know about and some we probably still don't with rights for gay people and others only enshrined in law in the last few years and we joined the EEC in 1973......

I'd be very careful wishing for even the EU to have the sort of power you want them to have........you think Putin,Johnson or even some countries you might think are friendly to the EU wouldn't use them to stir shit if they were forced to leave...?
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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You can't read them all, but the NYT would appear to concur.


I'd like to have these countries in.
So would I....


I knnow a good few Hungarians and i've worked with a lot of Poles....majority of them are very similar to us just trying to earn a crust and get by...i never heard any homophobic or racist language out of them......i've heard worse out of some of our own.......

I was working beside a fella from Sheffield today who is a good bit older than me we have a good chat about a few things including Brexit and guess what ..?..........all he wants to do is try and make a few bob to put away for his retirement fund as well............
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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We have had a hundred years of right wing governments in cahoots with the Church and all the abuses we know about and some we probably still don't with rights for gay people and others only enshrined in law in the last few years and we joined the EEC in 1973......

I'd be very careful wishing for even the EU to have the sort of power you want them to have........you think Putin,Johnson or even some countries you might think are friendly to the EU wouldn't use them to stir shit if they were forced to leave...?
They’re already doing that n those countries. This is happening now and what Ireland was like in 1973 or whenever isn’t relevant. This isn’t only about gay rights.
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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They’re already doing that n those countries. This is happening now and what Ireland was like in 1973 or whenever isn’t relevant. This isn’t only about gay rights.

It's about lots of things and i for one don't believe in throwing all the decent people who still make up a sizeable minority of opposition and who are gaining ground in these countries under the bus......i still feel sorrry for the 16 million decent British people who didn't want to leave and become an insular and regressive society....


As for relevance people in glass houses might be best off mending their own cracked panes and give Democracy along with some external economic pressure a chance first......
 

Bonkers

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It's about lots of things and i for one don't believe in throwing all the decent people who still make up a sizeable minority of opposition and who are gaining ground in these countries under the bus......i still feel sorrry for the 16 million decent British people who didn't want to leave and become an insular and regressive society....


As for relevance people in glass houses might be best off mending their own cracked panes and give Democracy along with some external economic pressure a chance first......
Orban is in power for eleven years. They’d want to hurry up if they don’t agree with him.
 

Franzoni

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Orban is in power for eleven years. They’d want to hurry up if they don’t agree with him.

Nope they don't unless you can prove the previous elections were rigged .......it's called Democracy and sometimes it's a pain in the arse but it's the best one we have come up with and it's under enough threat worldwide without creating more ones...... .......it's the same system that gave us Trump and got rid of him as well.....

You also seem to be of the opinion that it would be better to have Orban outside the tent where we can't put a financial squeeze on him......
 

Vega1447

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Feb 17, 2019
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Nope they don't unless you can prove the previous elections were rigged .......it's called Democracy and sometimes it's a pain in the arse but it's the best one we have come up with and it's under enough threat worldwide without creating more ones...... .......it's the same system that gave us Trump and got rid of him as well.....

You also seem to be of the opinion that it would be better to have Orban outside the tent where we can't put a financial squeeze on him......
But the EU is a rule based association of States.

Does it not have the moral as well as the legal right to enforce those rules?
 
Nov 27, 2018
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Nope they don't unless you can prove the previous elections were rigged .......it's called Democracy and sometimes it's a pain in the arse but it's the best one we have come up with and it's under enough threat worldwide without creating more ones...... .......it's the same system that gave us Trump and got rid of him as well.....

You also seem to be of the opinion that it would be better to have Orban outside the tent where we can't put a financial squeeze on him......
It’s too simple to say elections are rigged or not rigged. There is no objective media in Hungary, and Poland is going the same way.

It’s easy and often right, to attack media bias in Ireland, but media in Ireland still has objectivity and plurality, and people point out when this is lacking.

Media in Hungary is completely controlled by the current government, so TV, newspaper, radio, internet etc. Only push a pro-government line, and the media says things that are blatant fabrications.

This means elections are “free but not fair”, in that vote rigging is not as significant as in Belarus, so free”, but “not fair” in that it is extremely difficult for opposition to campaign, as they are deplatformed and/are demonised, while the constant claims in the media about how wonderful the government’s doing are constant and are not fact checked.

The scary fact is that You, being in Ireland snd following international news, have far more reliable information about what’s happening in Hungary that the majority of the electorate in Hungary (or Poland) do.

A blackly funny example - the state run (sd largest) TV station in Poland happily announced that Trump had definitively won the US reaction in 2020. They also have stated, as fact on a news channel, that Donald Tusk is paid by Germany and Israel to work against the Polish people.

This is what is happening, and this is why the elections are “free but not fair”.
 
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Shaadi

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Feb 16, 2019
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It’s too simple to say elections are rigged or not rigged. There is no objective media in Hungary, and Poland is going the same way.

It’s easy and often right, to attack media bias in Ireland, but media in Ireland still has objectivity and plurality, and people point out when this is lacking.

Media in Hungary is completely controlled by the current government, so TV, newspaper, radio, internet etc. Only push a pro-government line, and the media says things that are blatant fabrications.

This means elections are “free but not fair”, in that vote rigging is not as significant as in Belarus, so free”, but “not fair” in that it is extremely difficult for opposition to campaign, as they are deplatformed and/are demonised, while the constant claims in the media about how wonderful the government’s doing are constant and are not fact checked.

The scary fact is that You, being in Ireland snd following international news, have far more reliable information about what’s happening in Hungary that the majority of the electorate in Hungary (or Poland) do.

A blackly funny example - the state run (sd largest) TV station in Poland happily announced that Trump had definitively won the US reaction in 2020. They also have stated, as fact on a news channel, that Donald Tusk is paid by Germany and Israel to work against the Polish people.

This is what is happening, and this is why the elections are “free but not fair”.
And..... People like to hide behind "I didn't know what was happening" when it suits them. I somehow doubt that Hungary or Poland are removed from the WWW. People know their Govt are liars, people in the UK know that their Govt are liars. People in Ireland knew what was going on in the Tiger years.

People choose to accept that with which they are comfortable.

The politicians didn't keep Ireland moored in socially conservative policies. The electorate voted for parties whose policies those were.

If the majority in Hungary and Poland don't care enough about changing the people who run their country then they too are complicit in what's going on in those countries
 
Nov 27, 2018
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And..... People like to hide behind "I didn't know what was happening" when it suits them. I somehow doubt that Hungary or Poland are removed from the WWW. People know their Govt are liars, people in the UK know that their Govt are liars. People in Ireland knew what was going on in the Tiger years.

People choose to accept that with which they are comfortable.

The politicians didn't keep Ireland moored in socially conservative policies. The electorate voted for parties whose policies those were.

If the majority in Hungary and Poland don't care enough about changing the people who run their country then they too are complicit in what's going on in those countries
Not that many people follow news other than domestic news. Some do, but only a minority. So, yes, it has a severe impact on voting choices.

So are the voters culpable? Yes. But does that mean, "if they fall for it, it's their own fault, so it's fair game to have virtually all media controlled by a single political group?". No.

Tale the George Orwell 1984 example - Was the Ministry of Truth (with their constant revisionism of news a history) acceptable if the general populace tolerated and accepted it? Does that toleration or acceptance justify the manipulation? No.
 

Shaadi

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Feb 16, 2019
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Not that many people follow news other than domestic news. Some do, but only a minority. So, yes, it has a severe impact on voting choices.

So are the voters culpable? Yes. But does that mean, "if they fall for it, it's their own fault, so it's fair game to have virtually all media controlled by a single political group?". No.

Tale the George Orwell 1984 example - Was the Ministry of Truth (with their constant revisionism of news a history) acceptable if the general populace tolerated and accepted it? Does that toleration or acceptance justify the manipulation? No.
It's not a binary thing. Bad Govt - oppressed people. Of course the situation is nuanced but have you not been in a position where you discussed such media manipulation with people who understand what's going on but they also choose to shrug and pretend things are not as bad as you make them out to be?
 
Nov 27, 2018
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6,190
It's not a binary thing. Bad Govt - oppressed people. Of course the situation is nuanced but have you not been in a position where you discussed such media manipulation with people who understand what's going on but they also choose to shrug and pretend things are not as bad as you make them out to be?
`yep, this happens. there are a lot of complacent people in Poland. There are also a lot of ignorant people. But that complacency and ignorance has been fostered and rewarded by the government by offering lots of smarties (essentially giving people back their own tax money and making it feel like largesse) and gutting and politicising the education system and syllabus.

The tack you're taking here is very similar to the "we all partied" accusation. Elements of it are true, but it is not, on its own, a justification.
 

Shaadi

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Feb 16, 2019
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`yep, this happens. there are a lot of complacent people in Poland. There are also a lot of ignorant people. But that complacency and ignorance has been fostered and rewarded by the government by offering lots of smarties (essentially giving people back their own tax money and making it feel like largesse) and gutting and politicising the education system and syllabus.

The tack you're taking here is very similar to the "we all partied" accusation. Elements of it are true, but it is not, on its own, a justification.
I don't subscribe to the elements of it are true bit, many regular humans are scumbags who hide in plain sight. There is a huge amount of culpability within any country that elects nasty or known on the take politicians to positions of power where they have real power to do damage.

Go to any politics site in this country and see all the former FF voters who have Pontius Pilate'd themselves of the former objects of their desire. Not picking on FF in particular but using them to demonstrate the spectacular hypocrisy of many who have since lied through their teeth about their cheerleading of what went on back them.

Other countries and people are no different
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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`yep, this happens. there are a lot of complacent people in Poland. There are also a lot of ignorant people. But that complacency and ignorance has been fostered and rewarded by the government by offering lots of smarties (essentially giving people back their own tax money and making it feel like largesse) and gutting and politicising the education system and syllabus.

The tack you're taking here is very similar to the "we all partied" accusation. Elements of it are true, but it is not, on its own, a justification.
I suppose if the eu place any sanctions on them they'll play the nasty foreigners card. Would there be many who want to leave
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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It’s too simple to say elections are rigged or not rigged. There is no objective media in Hungary, and Poland is going the same way.

It’s easy and often right, to attack media bias in Ireland, but media in Ireland still has objectivity and plurality, and people point out when this is lacking.

Media in Hungary is completely controlled by the current government, so TV, newspaper, radio, internet etc. Only push a pro-government line, and the media says things that are blatant fabrications.

This means elections are “free but not fair”, in that vote rigging is not as significant as in Belarus, so free”, but “not fair” in that it is extremely difficult for opposition to campaign, as they are deplatformed and/are demonised, while the constant claims in the media about how wonderful the government’s doing are constant and are not fact checked.

The scary fact is that You, being in Ireland snd following international news, have far more reliable information about what’s happening in Hungary that the majority of the electorate in Hungary (or Poland) do.

A blackly funny example - the state run (sd largest) TV station in Poland happily announced that Trump had definitively won the US reaction in 2020. They also have stated, as fact on a news channel, that Donald Tusk is paid by Germany and Israel to work against the Polish people.

This is what is happening, and this is why the elections are “free but not fair”.
It was only the other week that FG regurgitated the 21st Century version of 'Keep the shadow of the gunman from your door 'poster in a by-election when it should be 'Keep the Vulture fund fROm your door' in reality.....


Orbans insane promises will catch up wtih him soon enough next year despite some posters wanting the Polish and Hungarian people to press the stupid button to suit their own ideology....
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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It was only the other week that FG regurgitated the 21st Century version of 'Keep the shadow of the gunman from your door 'poster in a by-election when it should be 'Keep the Vulture fund fROm your door' in reality.....


Orbans insane promises will catch up wtih him soon enough next year despite some posters wanting the Polish and Hungarian people to press the stupid button to suit their own ideology....
FG lost that election……..
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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But the EU is a rule based association of States.

Does it not have the moral as well as the legal right to enforce those rules?

It is..... it's threatening to stop any EU funding to those countries .....there are also domestic elections coming up in Hungary next year and the opposition is now gaining in the opinion polls according to some commentators as outlined in a Reuters article i linked in post #57......
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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Do you think nothing should be done about this disgusting racist homophobic regime?
They have elections next year and for the third time the opposition are gaining ground which have been backed up by two articles linked by myself and another poster.....it is my opinion that it would be better all round for Orban to be defeated in a domestic election without any outside interference and hopefully followed by some sort of criminal investigation into his time in office..............

If for example Russia was found to be acting in the background as they interfered in other countries elections then i would support intervention to make sure the elections were held fairly.....


Anyways i thought it wasn't all about the LGBT community or at least that's what you said to me yesterday in post #83 when i pointed that out......?
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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They have elections next year and fot the third time the opposition are gaining ground which have been backed up by two articles linked by myself and another poster.....it is my opinion that it would be better all round for Orban to be defeated in a domestic election wirhout any outside interference asnd hopefully followed by some sort of criminal investigation into his time in office..............

If for example Russia was found to be acting in the background as they interfered in other countries elections then i would support intervention to make sure the elections were held fairly.....


Anyways i thought it wasn't all about the LGBT community or at least that's what you said to me yesterday in post #83 when i pointed that out......?
Read that post again Fran. I said it wasn’t only about the gay community.
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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Read that post again Fran. I said it wasn’t only about the gay community.
But a lot of it is and rightly so.......

You might want to go over to the Brexit thread and read Mac tÍres post on his thinking around what the British are up to via the NI protocol it has a bearing on what we are discussing here and what would be likely to happen if Hungary and Poland decided to leave or were forced out.....
 
Nov 27, 2018
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At this point, Poland is essentially in a state of cultural civil “war” (“war” not war - there is quite a bit of physical violence, but I’m not claiming people are fighting in the streets en masse regularly)

I’d imagine Hungary is in the same state.

So, at this point, the divisions are too entrenched to be able to speak about “Polish people“ as a single group.
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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But a lot of it is and rightly so.......

You might want to go over to the Brexit thread and read Mac tÍres post on his thinking around what the British are up to via the NI protocol it has a bearing on what we are discussing here and what would be likely to happen if Hungary and Poland decided to leave or were forced out.....
If they decide to leave so be it. I’d imagine a lot of them wouldn’t be happy to see millions returning home.
 
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