The British - A grassroots re-education about their colonial history underway? (brought on by Racism Marches, BLM)

Nov 27, 2018
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We're not black and we really shouldn't try to hijack this.
who’s “we” exactly? You mean that you know that you are not black, and you’re presuming the”rest of us” are like you. You don‘t know what skin colour the”rest of us“ are.

I’m not having a go at you just for the sake of having a go at you, But making assumptions and presumptions are at the roots of the reasons of these protests. Institutional racism in policing comes from assumptions of identity and behaviour based on skin-colour.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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Throughout history, Racism ISNT just about COLOUR is it?
Thoughout history, racism isn’t about race or ethnicity. It’s a inaccurate word. It’s abiut inequality and oppression for power and profit. The basis of the bigotry or justifications for the inequality are often arbitrary.
 

Robutnua

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Thoughout history, racism isn’t about race or ethnicity. It’s a inaccurate word. It’s abiut inequality and oppression for power and profit.
Thanks, that makes my point. I think NOW, to an extent this whole BLM thing is taking over the RACISM word to mean that its just about Colour? Redefining maybe?
 

Statsman

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How could there be a famine when Britain was exporting food under guard of more British troops stationed here than they had in India at the time?

We have never accepted that it was a genocide.

I cannot accept these Irish British empire apologists insisting that we partook wholeheartedly as a nation in imperial conquest.

We were the template for all British imperial conquest and subjugation of invaded natives in their native habitat.

Is it white privilege that means we're the only nation in Europe that have never recovered it's population lost under imperial rule? I do not see white privilege in Ireland. I see individuals who consume too much race politics from elsewhere while being completely pig ignorant of the British racist polices that were rejected by the formation of a republic.

We were a template for many conquered peoples to begin the path to fighting off european racist imperialism.
And it is entirely your White privilege to feel that way.
 

Statsman

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who’s “we” exactly? You mean that you know that you are not black, and you’re presuming the”rest of us” are like you. You don‘t know what skin colour the”rest of us“ are.

I’m not having a go at you just for the sake of having a go at you, But making assumptions and presumptions are at the roots of the reasons of these protests. Institutional racism in policing comes from assumptions of identity and behaviour based on skin-colour.
I specifically mean White Irish people are not black.
 

Robutnua

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And it is entirely your White privilege to feel that way.
https://www.lexico.com/definition/white_privilege

"Inherent advantages possessed by a white person on the basis of their race in a society characterized by racial inequality and injustice."

Is IRISH SOCIETY "characterized by racial inequality and injustice"? And do white persons in Irish Society possess inherent advantages over others of a particular race here? If so do they possess inherent advantages over JUST people of colour here or is it a bit more nuanced than that?
 

Statsman

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https://www.lexico.com/definition/white_privilege

"Inherent advantages possessed by a white person on the basis of their race in a society characterized by racial inequality and injustice."

Is IRISH SOCIETY "characterized by racial inequality and injustice"? And do white persons in Irish Society possess inherent advantages over others of a particular race here? If so do they possess inherent advantages over JUST people of colour here or is it a bit more nuanced than that?
Nobody is going to take one loom at you and tell you to go home.
 

ruserious

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Generational and class privilege is something that should also not be ignored.
 

Statsman

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But it’s an assumption to say that “we” are white Irish people. ”White“ and”Irish” not synonyms.
A fair point. However, I'm prepared to hazard a guess that the percentage of posters here who are PoC is ~0%
 

Statsman

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Generational and class privilege is something that should also not be ignored.
This is exactly the kind of whataboutery that is used by Alt Right and other groups and individuals use when they don't actually want to address racism in society.
 

Robutnua

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This is exactly the kind of whataboutery that is used by Alt Right and other groups and individuals use when they don't actually want to address racism in society.
I think its fair to ask .... For the purpose of here in this thread or in general can you AND others please define RACISM in general and/or from your perspective.

I posted a definition above ( which you commented on )
 

curio

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And it is entirely your White privilege to feel that way.
Explain please.

That makes zero sense. Is it Chinese privilege to feel Chinese in China?

I really noticed in Australia the dynamic of racism, I'd get called an expat but anyone coloured but on the same work visa, wages and conditions got called an immigrant. Australia is still a British realm, a lot of remaining aboriginal habitat is legally called Crown Land!

In Ireland we have a bunch British imperialists who think Irish people wanting just to learn Irish in Ireland is an act cultural supremacy. Am I a Irish supremist for using cúpla fucail? Is an Irish person with african parents traitor to their parents for using cúpla focail?

In the whole era of european imperialism Ireland was a subjected nation, a colony that suffered repeated privations. I think a big part of the problem is that white supremists count Ireland as theirs and they drip feed racism via willing conduits like Gemma.

Yes there are racists in Ireland, but the state emerged as a rejection of the subjugation of living off other nations. Geopolitically we are a third world nation.
 

Statsman

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For the purpose of here in this thread or in general can you define RACISM in general and/or from your perspective please.
The unfounded notion that there are different races of human, and that one race is in some sense superior to another.
Settled Irish treatment of Minceri.
White America's treatment of African-American, Asian-American and Hispanic communities.
Most of the West's historic treatment of the Jews.

And so on.
 

curio

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The unfounded notion that there are different races of human, and that one race is in some sense superior to another.
Settled Irish treatment of Minceri.
White America's treatment of African-American, Asian-American and Hispanic communities.
Most of the West's historic treatment of the Jews.

And so on.
How is racial supremacy defined in our constitution?
 

ruserious

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This is exactly the kind of whataboutery that is used by Alt Right and other groups and individuals use when they don't actually want to address racism in society.
I don’t think minorities in Ireland are subject to racial unfair treatment in medical or police responses because of their race. It’s not whataboutery to bring up other areas of injustice that possibly account for the inequality of treatment. You seem to view inequality chiefly through the lens of race where as it may be legitimate to view it through other lens too.
 
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Nov 27, 2018
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A fair point. However, I'm prepared to hazard a guess that the percentage of posters here who are PoC is ~0%
I wouldn’t. That’s an assumption up there with assuming all posters are male unless they specifically and repeatedly state that they’re female.
 
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Shaadi

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Thoughout history, racism isn’t about race or ethnicity. It’s a inaccurate word. It’s abiut inequality and oppression for power and profit. The basis of the bigotry or justifications for the inequality are often arbitrary.
That's not technically true.

Racism = "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Racism discriminates between different groups based on perceived nationality, ethnicity, colour. The KKK didn't go around burning crosses on poor white protestant people's lawns.
 

MOTS

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How could there be a famine when Britain was exporting food under guard of more British troops stationed here than they had in India at the time?

We have never accepted that it was a genocide.

I cannot accept these Irish British empire apologists insisting that we partook wholeheartedly as a nation in imperial conquest.

We were the template for all British imperial conquest and subjugation of invaded natives in their native habitat.

Is it white privilege that means we're the only nation in Europe that have never recovered it's population lost under imperial rule? I do not see white privilege in Ireland. I see individuals who consume too much race politics from elsewhere while being completely pig ignorant of the British racist polices that were rejected by the formation of a republic.

We were a template for many conquered peoples to begin the path to fighting off european racist imperialism.
"We were a template for many conquered peoples to begin the path to fighting off european racist imperialism."
- curio


Correct.

However, t´was not the Brits fault at all at all, - shure did you not hear on this very Forum that Britain had absolutely no choice whatsoever - " either they take the moral high ground - or be subjugated."

Shure the poor cratur-eens were forced into subjugating us, along with subjugating over 1/4 of the entire Planet - but t´wasn`t their fault now like, mind.

Anyway, dem clever lads over in Britain dat were eudcated in Eton, Oxford and Cambridge will tell you that the Em-pahhh was a force for good - but of course, yes, regrettably, some bad apples did slip through which, of course, was most unfortunate.**


** preferably this bit in bold to be imagined as spoken in the voice of Mr. Rees-Mogg
 
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soccop

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Vega1447

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The unfounded notion that there are different races of human, and that one race is in some sense superior to another.
Settled Irish treatment of Minceri.
White America's treatment of African-American, Asian-American and Hispanic communities.
Most of the West's historic treatment of the Jews.

And so on.
A bit late replying but
The unfounded notion that there are different races of human, and that one race is in some sense superior to another.
Settled Irish treatment of Minceri.
is a bit off.

Very few Irish people see travellers as a separate "race".

In fact travellers have campaigned for "ethnic status" for years.
 

snorlax

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That's not technically true.

Racism = "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

Racism discriminates between different groups based on perceived nationality, ethnicity, colour. The KKK didn't go around burning crosses on poor white protestant people's lawns.
Many Irish are disgustingly racist about travellers, and many Irish were on the receiving end of racial discrimination for many years in the UK and the US. People who want to destroy Islam are also racist. Not recognising these facts is actually racist because you are accepting that there actually a basis to the theory of race. There isn't. It's completely made up, usually to justify oppression, discrimination and exploitation of a separate group.
 

Statsman

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Many Irish are disgustingly racist about travellers, and many Irish were on the receiving end of racial discrimination for many years in the UK and the US. People who want to destroy Islam are also racist. Not recognising these facts is actually racist because you are accepting that there actually a basis to the theory of race. There isn't. It's completely made up, usually to justify oppression, discrimination and exploitation of a separate group.
This. +1000.
 

hollandia

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A bit late replying but

is a bit off.

Very few Irish people see travellers as a separate "race".

In fact travellers have campaigned for "ethnic status" for years.
It's not a bit "off" - it's legally and factually correct.

 

Statsman

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Just to say I corrected a typo in the thread title.
 

Vega1447

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It's not a bit "off" - it's legally and factually correct.

Unless you think that the terms "ethnic group" and "race" are synonymous. Which they aren't.

If race means anything (I don't believe that it does) it means a biological affinity.

While "ethnic group" means a cultural or political affinity, if it means anything. I'm not sure that it means much either.
 

hollandia

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Unless you think that the terms "ethnic group" and "race" are synonymous. Which they aren't.

If race means anything (I don't believe that it does) it means a biological affinity.

While "ethnic group" means a cultural or political affinity, if it means anything. I'm not sure that it means much either.
I don't "think" anything. I'm pointing out to you the legal reality.
I see you also didn't read the Guardian link. In the UK Travellers are afforded the protections of the Race Relations Act by virtue of being a recognised ethnic grouping. So, legally speaking, they are synonymous.
 

Vega1447

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I don't "think" anything. I'm pointing out to you the legal reality.
I see you also didn't read the Guardian link. In the UK Travellers are afforded the protections of the Race Relations Act by virtue of being a recognised ethnic grouping. So, legally speaking, they are synonymous.
The Guardian's opinion is just that.

And even if a and b are prosecuted under the same law it does not follow that a=b.

Words have meanings independent of their legal definition.
 

hollandia

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The Guardian's opinion is just that.

And even if a and b are prosecuted under the same law it does not follow that a=b.

Words have meanings independent of their legal definition.
The guardian haven't given an opinion, they have reported a verifiable fact. Which can be backed up by perusal of the relevant legislation.
And the meanings haven't changed, they have been give legal weight.

In fact, one of the many meanings of "race" is as follows (in both US and UK english)

"a group of people sharing a common cultural, geographical, linguistic, or religious origin or background"
"A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group."


So, no the meaning hasn't been changed by the guardian, by the the change in Law, Uncle Tom Cobbley or anyone else. It remains the same.

Funny thing about the meanings of words is that they're really not that difficult to look up.
 

Vega1447

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The guardian haven't given an opinion, they have reported a verifiable fact. Which can be backed up by perusal of the relevant legislation.
And the meanings haven't changed, they have been give legal weight.

In fact, one of the many meanings of "race" is as follows (in both US and UK english)

"a group of people sharing a common cultural, geographical, linguistic, or religious origin or background"
"A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group."


So, no the meaning hasn't been changed by the guardian, by the the change in Law, Uncle Tom Cobbley or anyone else. It remains the same.

Funny thing about the meanings of words is that they're really not that difficult to look up.

“Race” is usually associated with biology and linked with physical characteristics such as skin color or hair texture. “Ethnicity” is linked with cultural expression and identification. However, both are social constructs used to categorize and characterize seemingly distinct populations.
And imo both terms are so open to redefinition on the fly that (as well as being open to abuse) they are effectively meaningless.
 

hollandia

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And imo both are so open to redefinition on the fly that (as well as being open to abuse) they are effectively meaningless.
I've given you the literal dictionary definition. Since you made the argument that words have meanings, anything else is a sideshow/bolloxology.
 

Vega1447

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I've given you the literal dictionary definition. Since you made the argument that words have meanings, anything else is a sideshow/bolloxology.
This is getting unnecessarily heated.

There are many many dictionaries, many not available on line. A dictionary definition of a scientific term is not canonical.

Who would you trust for a definition of, say, gravitation; the OED or (say) Nature? Or even Wikipedia...

I'll go with National Geographic for definitions of race and ethnicity....
 

hollandia

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This is getting unnecessarily heated.

There are many many dictionaries, many not available on line. A dictionary definition of a scientific term is not canonical.

Who would you trust for a definition of, say, gravitation; the OED or (say) Nature? Or even Wikipedia...

I'll go with National Geographic for definitions of race and ethnicity....
I quoted the OED and Merriam-Webster.

I'll happily quote more, of you really like.
 

Vega1447

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I quoted the OED and Merriam-Webster.

I'll happily quote more, of you really like.
Quote away.

For definitions of scientific terms I'll go with specialist journals or publications, not dictionaries.

Anyway, it's too hot to argue.
 

hollandia

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Quote away.

For definitions of scientific terms I'll go with specialist journals or publications, not dictionaries.

Anyway, it's too hot to argue.
Oh - it's a "scientific term" now, is it? Funny that - you're argument a few posts back was "words have meanings and the Guardian don't get to redefine them"

Words have meanings independent of their legal definition.
One could be forgiven that your doubling down after being schooled.
 
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Vega1447

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Oh - it's a "scientific term" now, is it? Funny that - you're argument a few posts back was "words have meanings and the Guardian don't get to redefine them"



One could be forgiven that you're doubling down after being schooled.
Good luck with that schooling thing...🤣

I've worked in mathematics and physics for 40 years.

You?
 
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