The British - A grassroots re-education about their colonial history underway? (brought on by Racism Marches, BLM)

Robutnua

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If you’re British and, like me, you weren’t taught about our colonial heritage, here are some things you can google

Ok she did not mention IRELAND in her list but go down through the twitter responses where this is righted big time. Cromwell for example has a complete different "history" in the UK, a good guy.

It looks like due to the current racism/blm marches the brits have decided to, or being in a way forced to confront there colonial history. The knocking down of the edward Colston statue and defacing other monuments to a colonial racist past. Of course in the more recent past from the start of Brexit discovering what Northern Ireland was about. The painful part that great britain may not be so great after all ..

It seems (and we discussed this here before a while back) the UK education system has air brushed a massive amount of there history away into the shadows .. not just Irish/British history but its complete colonial history and heritage across the world.


This podcast hits the subject head on:


So .. is there an awakening in Britain / the UK / England .. in fact something that could turn out to be very painful ( but necessary ) to the UK/British psyche? Something they now have to go through? Was Brexit unwittingly the start of this, now further fueled by this awakening to a past that is now being exposed by these marches
 
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Robutnua

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twitter has taught me more about british colonial history in the last 2 days than 13 years of school did


british colonial history education is absolutely abysmal i was taught about the actual actions of the Empire for the first time this year ... in my second year ... of a history degree ... in modules that were Optional

we learn in school that colonial empires were just a little European competition for land abroad divorced from its material consequences and legacy and absolutely nothing about the terror, exploitation and violence we inflicted abroad . a Joke
 

Cruimh

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There colonial history?

Colonialism was a part of world history. It was colonise or be colonised.

People from Ireland colonised big chunks of England, Scotland and Wales - when they could. But those feasting on Brit bashing have air-brushed that out of existence. Just as Irish slavery isn’t acknowledged. And I’m not talking about those Irish people who were happy to participate in slavery overseas. Slavery was a big part oh early Irish history

i remember rent-a-mobs in the past.

As with this rioting over BLM in the USA, the protestors seized on racism to attack the establishment. S Africa , Zimbabwe etc Before that it was CND, another worthy cause subverted by agitators.

Add in the tensions of lock down, people being glad to mingle while virtue signalling and let off steam.
 

Robutnua

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There colonial history?
Yes, the subject of THIS thread. Its not ignoring colonialism from elsewhere, that can be another thread?

Its just that over last week or so I have noted an upsurge in the UK seeking knowledge & speaking about its not too Great History, because it seems they are thought in schools an airbrushed history without the bad bits in many cases.
 

Shaadi

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There colonial history?

Colonialism was a part of world history. It was colonise or be colonised.

People from Ireland colonised big chunks of England, Scotland and Wales - when they could. But those feasting on Brit bashing have air-brushed that out of existence. Just as Irish slavery isn’t acknowledged. And I’m not talking about those Irish people who were happy to participate in slavery overseas. Slavery was a big part oh early Irish history

i remember rent-a-mobs in the past.

As with this rioting over BLM in the USA, the protestors seized on racism to attack the establishment. S Africa , Zimbabwe etc Before that it was CND, another worthy cause subverted by agitators.

Add in the tensions of lock down, people being glad to mingle while virtue signalling and let off steam.
People are bastards regardless of country of origin, the Irish are no different.

The difference between harking back to the actions of different clans, kingdoms, sub kingdoms etc in ancient times and the Colonial History of the UK is that UK Colonial actions took place with Govt and Monarch structures in place which remain in place today as the basis of the UK State with SFA apology having ever been made.
 

hollandia

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People are bastards regardless of country of origin, the Irish are no different.

The difference between harking back to the actions of different clans, kingdoms, sub kingdoms etc in ancient times and the Colonial History of the UK is that UK Colonial actions took place with Govt and Monarch structures in place which remain in place today as the basis of the UK State with SFA apology having ever been made.
The same could be said of France and Spain. Belgium committed some very egregious crimes in Congo.

Basically empire era Europe treated the rest of the world like shit.
 

Robutnua

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My simple point here is that the UKs own history is now being questioned by its own people on the ground. How its thought is being questioned. Not sure I ever remember that happening before?
 

Shaadi

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The same could be said of France and Spain. Belgium committed some very egregious crimes in Congo.

Basically empire era Europe treated the rest of the world like shit.
Indeed, little Belgium gets away with Murder.

The UK also has a history in the abolition of slavery. It's also a fact that the modern UK recently elected a bollox as Prime Minister who uses terms like picaninnies and believes the Empire was a great thing.
 

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Yes, the subject of THIS thread. Its not ignoring colonialism from elsewhere, that can be another thread?

Its just that over last week or so I have noted an upsurge in the UK seeking knowledge & speaking about its not too Great History, because it seems they are thought in schools an airbrushed history without the bad bits in many cases.
Not this again, this is nothing new.

The UK has had 50 plus years of self criticism.

Think on this. The UK didn’t invent modern colonialism and Slavery . It had to
do as other countries were doing - for example Spain which became dangerously strong from the wealth plundered from the new world. So should Britain back then have taken the moral high ground, which would have led to our subjugation?

Historiography is a fascinating study in its own right. God save us from Popular History, where history isn’t based on the past, but viewed through current political imperatives.
 

curio

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I remember visiting Bury and being struck by a statue of Robert Peel in the centre. To the Brit he's the father of the police force, giving his name to Bobbies but in Ireland we know him for Peels Brimstone.

Travelling through the post industrial landscapes of Britain it does hit you the massive wealth that was amassed there. The little towns of Shaw and Compton outside Oldham had the most millionaires per head of population in the England for brief period due to massive Great War cloth demand.

The decline started in the interwar years and many once wealthy milltowns saw their populations shrink over decades, leaving those who remained surrounded by mocking architectural reminders of that lost
There colonial history?

Colonialism was a part of world history. It was colonise or be colonised.

People from Ireland colonised big chunks of England, Scotland and Wales - when they could. But those feasting on Brit bashing have air-brushed that out of existence. Just as Irish slavery isn’t acknowledged. And I’m not talking about those Irish people who were happy to participate in slavery overseas. Slavery was a big part oh early Irish history

i remember rent-a-mobs in the past.

As with this rioting over BLM in the USA, the protestors seized on racism to attack the establishment. S Africa , Zimbabwe etc Before that it was CND, another worthy cause subverted by agitators.

Add in the tensions of lock down, people being glad to mingle while virtue signalling and let off steam.
The Irish state is a rejection of colonialism and on this island we're still dealing with a colonial partition.
 

Shaadi

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My simple point here is that the UKs own history is now being questioned by its own people on the ground. How its thought is being questioned. Not sure I ever remember that happening before?
It's a very healthy thing. If they can see through the hooray for Empire brigade's BS then they can kick the current loons running the country to touch.
 

Cruimh

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The same could be said of France and Spain. Belgium committed some very egregious crimes in Congo.

Basically empire era Europe treated the rest of the world like shit.
i don’t think there was a major European country that didn’t have a colonial past up to the 19th century that looks terrible seen though 21st century mores. The cruelest empires were Denmark and Germany. The underlying motives were not just greed but also self preservation

Our societies are evolving, Empire building was going on millennia before the rise of British and Spanish Empires....

we have the joys of modern capitalism and multinational global financial empire building and slavery. In a few hundred years society will probably look back at our supposedly enlightened ways in horror
 

Cruimh

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I remember visiting Bury and being struck by a statue of Robert Peel in the centre. To the Brit he's the father of the police force, giving his name to Bobbies but in Ireland we know him for Peels Brimstone.

Travelling through the post industrial landscapes of Britain it does hit you the massive wealth that was amassed there. The little towns of Shaw and Compton outside Oldham had the most millionaires per head of population in the England for brief period due to massive Great War cloth demand.

The decline started in the interwar years and many once wealthy milltowns saw their populations shrink over decades, leaving those who remained surrounded by mocking architectural reminders of that lost

The Irish state is a rejection of colonialism and on this island we're still dealing with a colonial partition.
so you will be recalling Irish America?

of course Irish nationalist see history though different eyes and attach different significances.
 

ruserious

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so you will be recalling Irish America?

of course Irish nationalist see history though different eyes and attach different significances.
Irish America is not a product of Irish colonialism and is in fact largely a consequence of British genocide in Ireland during the 19th Century.
 

Cruimh

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Irish America is not a product of Irish colonialism and is in fact largely a consequence of British genocide in Ireland during the 19th Century.
So the Irish in the USA were invited by the people there before they arrived?
They looked upon USA, Canada, Australia, the Caribbean etc as lands that were up for grabs. No different from people from England and Wales, Scotland, France, Spain etc Going outside of Europe. Self Interest.
 

Shaadi

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Irish America is not a product of Irish colonialism and is in fact largely a consequence of British genocide in Ireland during the 19th Century.
Irish America is a product of the Anglican domination of the UK. It was the Anglicans who pushed the Penal Laws on Ireland, sending the Scots-Irish from Ulster in the 18th Century followed by the Catholic Irish in the 19th Century.
 

mac tíre

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Not this again, this is nothing new.

The UK has had 50 plus years of self criticism.

Think on this. The UK didn’t invent modern colonialism and Slavery . It had to
do as other countries were doing - for example Spain which became dangerously strong from the wealth plundered from the new world. So should Britain back then have taken the moral high ground, which would have led to our subjugation?


Historiography is a fascinating study in its own right. God save us from Popular History, where history isn’t based on the past, but viewed through current political imperatives.
I'm not so sure Britain, or England, in particular, needed to resort to colonalism and slavery to remain unsubjugated.
 

cumulonimbus

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Countries have their own histories and perspectives the UK has a colonial and empirial history it is important for them to understand it. That other countries also had empire or colonies doesn't change that. There perspective may be similar but also will differ in some respects Irish history is not the same as Frances for instance or Russia's common points will exist and overlap of course but they will also diverge. It's important because it's affects the present day what everyone maybe forgets to realise is actually the importance of ideas and thoughts these are what can shape centuries of history which are still present and and shapeing the world today aswell as the historical events. Look a trump standing in front of the church with a bibile for example he could almost be a pilgrim from another century.
 

curio

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I remember visiting Bury and being struck by a statue of Robert Peel in the centre. To the Brit he's the father of the police force, giving them his as Bobbies, but in Ireland we know him for Peels Brimstone.

Travelling through the post industrial landscapes of Britain it does hit you the massive wealth that was amassed there. The little towns of Shaw and Compton outside Oldham had the most millionaires per head of population in the England for brief period due to massive Great War cloth demand.

The decline started in the interwar years and many once wealthy mill towns saw their populations decline over decades, leaving those who remained surrounded by mocking architectural reminders of a much wealthier time.

A brief flick through the English basic history school course doesn't mention empire at all, even though there's streets and mills all over England named after various former colonies. Instead it's all about merry Henrician England and all his wives, the Spanish Armada, jump forward to saving Europe from Napoleon, and then a massive portion is dedicated to trench warfare and the rise and defeat of Hitler.

But Empire? There was a brief mention of India in relation to the opening of the Suez canal.
 

curio

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so you will be recalling Irish America?

of course Irish nationalist see history though different eyes and attach different significances.
Of course as a colony we would. English law has circumscribed Irish people in Ireland since the statutes of Kilkenny.

When you look at the list of plantation owners in Ireland compensated for the abolition of the slave trade they're all English plantation names. Delap was the most common slave plantation owner in Ireland, Dunlop is a supposed variation so I guess there may be some linkage with rubber plantations.
 

ruserious

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So the Irish in the USA were invited by the people there before they arrived?
They looked upon USA, Canada, Australia, the Caribbean etc as lands that were up for grabs. No different from people from England and Wales, Scotland, France, Spain etc Going outside of Europe. Self Interest.
The Irish largely left Ireland to escape British rule and its effects, whereas the British left to extend it, for the empire.
 

Vega1447

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Not this again, this is nothing new.

The UK has had 50 plus years of self criticism.

Think on this. The UK didn’t invent modern colonialism and Slavery . It had to
do as other countries were doing - for example Spain which became dangerously strong from the wealth plundered from the new world. So should Britain back then have taken the moral high ground, which would have led to our subjugation?

Historiography is a fascinating study in its own right. God save us from Popular History, where history isn’t based on the past, but viewed through current political imperatives.
"Our" subjugation?

Who are "we" and "subjugation" by whom?
 

curio

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Irish America is not a product of Irish colonialism and is in fact largely a consequence of British genocide in Ireland during the 19th Century.
Aside from Kennedy weren't all USA presidents of Irish descent via the Uster-Scots plantation route?
 

Dasayev

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All empires are essentially evil. Any good they do is motivated by self-interest or comes about accidentally.

About the only country that has come to terms with its history is Germany. The rest are barely embarrassed and largely apologist - everybody else was doing it, if we didn't do it someone else would have.

With the economic and political rise of China, India and the Third World in general, there might be some greater self-reflection, but that will be driven in part by self-interest. It'll be more about PR than any great moral awakening.
 
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There colonial history?

Colonialism was a part of world history. It was colonise or be colonised.

People from Ireland colonised big chunks of England, Scotland and Wales - when they could.
Irish colonised the UK?

Really, what genocide and displacement by violence did they visit upon the indigenous population?

Utter nonsense.

Buying a gaff and setting up a business is not colonialism.
 
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Irish colonised the UK?

Really, what genocide and displacement by violence did they visit upon the indigenous population?

Utter nonsense.

Buying a gaff and setting up a business is not colonialism.
This is the same logic that was used on p.ie and pish to claim that Ireland was being colonised by African nations. It’s a false argument.

For a colony to be a colony, the government or military of the colonising nation has to declare the colony is the property of that nation, and no longer the property of the colonised nation. Hence the image of planting a flag and claiming ownership of the soil.

No African nation has claimed ownership of any part of Ireland. And the Dail has never claimed ownership of any part of Scotland, Wales or Ireland.

So, not colonisation.
 

curio

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I think the best definition of a colony is where an outsider can't be held to account by local law. In the Chinese concessions this was called British Extraterritoriality.

The whole Stand with Soldier F is an effort to apply English extraterritoriality on NI. The Loyalists who hang Soldier F banners around NI don't realise that by doing so they're demoting their own status in the UK from integral to external GB colony and undermining any native or natural right claim in Ireland; they may soon find themselves marooned like so many soviets after the USSR evaporated.

In a similar way Cummings enjoyed a ruling class extraterritoriality in not facing penalty for breaking lockdown. Now people in Britain might have a better idea of what colonial rule looks like.

The working class are the remnant colony to be exploited.
 
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MOTS

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I think the best definition of a colony is where an outsider can't be held to account by local law. In the Chinese concessions this was called British Extraterritoriality.

The whole Stand with Soldier F is an effort to apply English extraterritoriality on NI. The Loyalists who hang Soldier F banners around NI don't realise that by doing so they're demoting their own status in the UK from integral to external GB colony and undermining any native claim in Ireland. They may soon find themselves marooned like so many soviets after the USSR evaporated.

In a similar way Cummings enjoyed a ruling class extraterritoriality in not facing penalty for breaking lockdown. Now people may in Britain might have a better idea of what colonial rule looks like.

The working class are the remnant colony to be exploited.


Indeed.

Many Unionists - especially hardline Unionists - see themselves as part of the "British" - read English - master race but fail to realise that this is not the way the "British" - read English - see it at all.

On the contrary, the vast majority of English people see northern Irish Unionists as "Paddy's" - and, in particular middle England, has little or no interest in affairs Irish or Ireland, north, south east or west, Nationalist or Unionist.
The majority of English people have no clue about Ireland - and could not care less.

A recent example was when the British Govt - Tory party - publicly dumped on the DUP and hung them out to dry.
Subsequently, the British Govt then went on to agree the Border in the Irish Sea between the North and Britain as part of the WA with the EU, with not so much as a peep from the Tory party nor a squeak from the ERG.
 
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MOTS

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Not this again, this is nothing new.

The UK has had 50 plus years of self criticism.

Think on this. The UK didn’t invent modern colonialism and Slavery . It had to
do as other countries were doing - for example Spain which became dangerously strong from the wealth plundered from the new world. So should Britain back then have taken the moral high ground, which would have led to our subjugation?

Historiography is a fascinating study in its own right. God save us from Popular History, where history isn’t based on the past, but viewed through current political imperatives.
"So should Britain back then have taken the moral high ground, which would have led to our subjugation"
-Cruimh

Ireland was subjugated and brutally colonised by Britain - over centuries.


There is - and was - no justification for it then or now.
Period.
 
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"So should Britain back then have taken the moral high ground, which would have led to our subjugation"
-Cruimh

Ireland was subjugated and brutally colonised by Britain - over centuries.


There is - and was - no justification for it then or now.
Period.
Plundering of the Jewel in the Crown and letting Ireland starve are cases in point.
 

curio

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Robutnua

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Toppling statues of bygone tyrants forces British people to face present-day racism - GUARDIAN

Britain has whitewashed its history of slavery and imperialism for too long – as the statues fall, another story is emerging

History is not being erased by those seeking to topple the statues of slavers and murderous white supremacists; it is being remembered. That is the real sin as far as the protestors’ detractors are concerned. They understandably fear what will happen if historical atrocities committed by the British state enter wider public consciousness.

British exceptionalism likes to portray the country as a historic oasis of liberty, the slayer of foreign tyrants from Philip II and Napoleon to Adolf Hitler.


No mention of Ireland from Eoin, but I suppose where BLM is concerned we wont come up in the British people remembering history part ...
 

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Toppling statues of bygone tyrants forces British people to face present-day racism - GUARDIAN

Britain has whitewashed its history of slavery and imperialism for too long – as the statues fall, another story is emerging

History is not being erased by those seeking to topple the statues of slavers and murderous white supremacists; it is being remembered. That is the real sin as far as the protestors’ detractors are concerned. They understandably fear what will happen if historical atrocities committed by the British state enter wider public consciousness.

British exceptionalism likes to portray the country as a historic oasis of liberty, the slayer of foreign tyrants from Philip II and Napoleon to Adolf Hitler.


No mention of Ireland from Eoin, but I suppose where BLM is concerned we wont come up in the British people remembering history part ...
We're not black and we really shouldn't try to hijack this.
 

curio

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We're not black and we really shouldn't try to hijack this.
If there had been TV cameras during the great hunger there's be statues everywhere commemorating that holocaust.
 

Statsman

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If there had been TV cameras during the great hunger there's be statues everywhere commemorating that holocaust.
And we still wouldn't be black, and Irish people today would still enjoy white privilege.
 

Robutnua

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We're not black and we really shouldn't try to hijack this.
I wouldnt be on about hijacking the BLM thing BUT the general reason I started this thread was via observation that the British are awakening to a history that was generally brushed under the carpet or airbrushed where their education system is concerned. Right to the point that there history in Ireland is a complete blindspot in the minds of I would say vast majority of British people.

So while this history re awakening in Britain is happening via racism and BLM matters, it surely cannot be a bad thing if along with it the veil that is there history in Ireland, there closest neighbour, gets pulled back too?
 

curio

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And we still wouldn't be black, and Irish people today would still enjoy white privilege.
What imperial white privilege were the starving enjoying during the great hunger?

The native was circumscribed in their own land by English law since the statues of Kilkenny. Henry VIII merely privatised christendom for his own personal uses and the English continued that franchise to pillage and plunder under the guise of that self appointed Defender Of The Faith stamp.
 

Statsman

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What imperial white privilege were the starving enjoying during the great hunger?

The native was circumscribed in their own land by English law since the statues of Kilkenny. Henry VIII merely privatised christendom for his own personal uses and the English continued that franchise to pillage and plunder under the guise of that self appointed Defender Of The Faith stamp.
We're not living in the great hunger. Black people are discriminated against, suffer police brutality, negative health outcomes, reduced job opportunities and the like NOW. we white Irish are the beneficiaries of White privilege NOW. Take your head out of the sands of the past and look around. The Famine is over.
 

curio

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We're not living in the great hunger. Black people are discriminated against, suffer police brutality, negative health outcomes, reduced job opportunities and the like NOW. we white Irish are the beneficiaries of White privilege NOW. Take your head out of the sands of the past and look around. The Famine is over.
How could there be a famine when Britain was exporting food under guard of more British troops stationed here than they had in India at the time?

We have never accepted that it was a genocide.

I cannot accept these Irish British empire apologists insisting that we partook wholeheartedly as a nation in imperial conquest.

We were the template for all British imperial conquest and subjugation of invaded natives in their native habitat.

Is it white privilege that means we're the only nation in Europe that have never recovered it's population lost under imperial rule? I do not see white privilege in Ireland. I see individuals who consume too much race politics from elsewhere while being completely pig ignorant of the British racist polices that were rejected by the formation of a republic.

We were a template for many conquered peoples to begin the path to fighting off european racist imperialism.
 
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