The Brexit thread

Statsman

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[MOD] Can I remind you of some site rules, ones that are been broken so often on this thread that I don't have time to address them all individually?

  • Tweets and videos should be accompanied by a brief description and if necessary a time line as outlined in the OP section.
  • If a video forms part of an OP (or ordinary post), the OP (or post) shall clearly set out the content which is relevant to the thread, and shall provide times of the relevant section of the video.
From here on in, I'm inclined to just delete offending posts.[/MOD]

[MOD2] Consider this a gentle reminder also of the proper use of names. We've noticed a lot of use of the term "the Brits" being used. Whilst this is generally not being used in a derogatory or pejorative way, it can be perceived to be both, so please avoid using it. Alternative, non-contentious terms can be used, eg The British, HMG, UKG, Westminster, etc., etc. We don't want to have to unnecessarily remove otherwise informative or incisive posts, but we will start doing so. [/MOD2]
 
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im axeled

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At a meeting on Wednesday between David Frost, the UK’s Brexit minister, and EU representatives, they failed to find agreement on a range of other disputes and looming crunch points.

The construction of border control posts at ports in Northern Ireland has been suspended, sufficient staff have not been recruited to carry out controls and checks and systems to trace goods have not been built, EU officials complain.

The EU believes the UK’s attitude towards the end of a grace period on a ban on the export from Great Britain to Northern Ireland of chilled meats such as sausages and mince will present a “crossroads” moment.
 

T. Leaf

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here is some uk vitrol from the torygraph, its long and sour
an opinion piece written by Nile Gardiner, Director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom - part of the Heritage Foundation in Washington.

Joe Biden should keep his sneering anti-British, anti-Brexit views to himself

Article:
The revelation that the Biden administration issued a “demarche” or diplomatic dressing down to the British government last week over its handling of the Northern Ireland border should cause outrage in Britain. This is the kind of treatment that is normally dished out to enemies of the United States, such as Russia, and hardly ever issued against a close ally.
As both The Telegraph and The Times have reported, Biden’s most senior diplomat in London delivered a firm rebuke on June 3 on behalf of the president to Brexit minister Lord Frost declaring that Britain’s stance on the Northern Ireland Protocol was jeopardising the future of the Northern Ireland peace process. To make matters even worse, Yael Lempert, Washington’s chargé d'affaires in London, issued a thinly veiled warning, linking the prospect of a US/UK free trade deal with White House demands for the UK to follow the European Union’s directives on agricultural standards.

In many respects, this is Joe Biden's "back of the queue" moment. Barack Obama's now infamous anti-Brexit intervention didn't go down well back in 2016, and threats like this will always backfire with the British people, who don't appreciate being lectured to by US presidents, not least one who displays his anti-British sentiments on his sleeve.

Unlike Obama, however, who was encouraged to intervene ahead of the Brexit referendum by then Prime Minister David Cameron, Biden didn’t act at the prodding of Downing Street. Biden’s Northern Ireland warning was a political cruise missile strike aimed directly at Boris Johnson and his Conservative government, with the intention of forcing a change in British policy. As a staunch Irish nationalist, Biden has frequently been critical of Great Britain over Northern Ireland, and now that he is president sees an opportunity to take it to task.

There is no love lost between Biden’s team, many of whom served in the Obama administration, and Boris Johnson. Some of Biden’s extremely sensitive aides are still unhappy with the former Mayor of London for his sharp criticism of Barack Obama over the removal of the Winston Churchill bust from the Oval Office back in 2009. They also intensely dislike Brexit and Johnson’s formerly close partnership with the Trump presidency. In addition, they have been angered by the strong stance of the British government in the culture wars, with its firm rejection of the kind of “woke” liberal agenda that is now central to the thinking of the Biden operation. Indeed, on many issues, the US and British governments are worlds apart, and Johnson has been forced to work with the most Left-wing US presidency in American history.

The arrogance of the Biden administration ahead of the G7 meeting in Cornwall has been nothing short of breathtaking. This is no way to treat America's closest friend and ally. The British people didn't vote for Joe Biden and the Democrats. They voted for Brexit and Boris Johnson's Conservatives. They voted to leave the EU and take back control of Britain's destiny. They don't need to be lectured by a US president who as a senator adopted a sympathetic stance towards the Irish Republican Army, and opposed the extradition of Irish terror suspects to face trial in the United Kingdom.

Biden’s predecessor, Donald Trump, was outspoken in his criticism of then prime minister Theresa May for what he saw as her weak handling of the Brexit negotiations. But he never made threats against Britain and always championed a free trade deal with the United Kingdom. Trump respected the democratic will of the British people to leave the European Union, and his instincts were profoundly pro-British and extremely supportive of the Special Relationship. Trump loathed the EU, and believed that the British people would be far better off completely freed of the shackles of the European Union.

Biden takes a very different approach to Trump when it comes to Europe and Brexit. He is a Eurofederalist at heart, who as vice president under Obama remarked in a speech before the European Parliament in 2010 that Brussels had a legitimate claim to be the “capital of the free world”. Biden has paid lip service in the past to the importance of the partnership with Britain, but he views the transatlantic alliance largely through the lens of the US/EU relationship, attaching great value to the Paris-Berlin-Brussels axis that has ruled continental Europe for the last few decades.

There should be a furious response in London to the Biden administration’s demands of the British government. President Biden needs to mind his own business. It is not his place to lecture the British Prime Minister and British officials about Northern Ireland and Brexit. Joe Biden should keep his sneering anti-British and anti-Brexit views to himself. At the G7 this week, Boris Johnson must stand up to Biden, and remind him that he, and not the US president, represents the democratic will of the British people.
Your true friends are those who tell you when you're making a mistake.
 
Apr 24, 2020
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While the USA is capable of mollycoddling the UK, in this instance it's a case of if the UK is not going to keep its word on the Withdrawal Agreement then why would the US do a Trade Deal with such a rogue nation?
At the expense of the relationship with the EU. The most stable and sane bit of the world.

Plus, causing the GFA to collapse would be a bad look for such an "Irish" president, from a party who left the GFA as a legacy and successful touchstone of positive foreign policy .
 
Apr 24, 2020
1,613
1,403
here is some uk vitrol from the torygraph, its long and sour
an opinion piece written by Nile Gardiner, Director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom - part of the Heritage Foundation in Washington.

Joe Biden should keep his sneering anti-British, anti-Brexit views to himself

Article:
The revelation that the Biden administration issued a “demarche” or diplomatic dressing down to the British government last week over its handling of the Northern Ireland border should cause outrage in Britain. This is the kind of treatment that is normally dished out to enemies of the United States, such as Russia, and hardly ever issued against a close ally.
As both The Telegraph and The Times have reported, Biden’s most senior diplomat in London delivered a firm rebuke on June 3 on behalf of the president to Brexit minister Lord Frost declaring that Britain’s stance on the Northern Ireland Protocol was jeopardising the future of the Northern Ireland peace process. To make matters even worse, Yael Lempert, Washington’s chargé d'affaires in London, issued a thinly veiled warning, linking the prospect of a US/UK free trade deal with White House demands for the UK to follow the European Union’s directives on agricultural standards.

In many respects, this is Joe Biden's "back of the queue" moment. Barack Obama's now infamous anti-Brexit intervention didn't go down well back in 2016, and threats like this will always backfire with the British people, who don't appreciate being lectured to by US presidents, not least one who displays his anti-British sentiments on his sleeve.

Unlike Obama, however, who was encouraged to intervene ahead of the Brexit referendum by then Prime Minister David Cameron, Biden didn’t act at the prodding of Downing Street. Biden’s Northern Ireland warning was a political cruise missile strike aimed directly at Boris Johnson and his Conservative government, with the intention of forcing a change in British policy. As a staunch Irish nationalist, Biden has frequently been critical of Great Britain over Northern Ireland, and now that he is president sees an opportunity to take it to task.

There is no love lost between Biden’s team, many of whom served in the Obama administration, and Boris Johnson. Some of Biden’s extremely sensitive aides are still unhappy with the former Mayor of London for his sharp criticism of Barack Obama over the removal of the Winston Churchill bust from the Oval Office back in 2009. They also intensely dislike Brexit and Johnson’s formerly close partnership with the Trump presidency. In addition, they have been angered by the strong stance of the British government in the culture wars, with its firm rejection of the kind of “woke” liberal agenda that is now central to the thinking of the Biden operation. Indeed, on many issues, the US and British governments are worlds apart, and Johnson has been forced to work with the most Left-wing US presidency in American history.

The arrogance of the Biden administration ahead of the G7 meeting in Cornwall has been nothing short of breathtaking. This is no way to treat America's closest friend and ally. The British people didn't vote for Joe Biden and the Democrats. They voted for Brexit and Boris Johnson's Conservatives. They voted to leave the EU and take back control of Britain's destiny. They don't need to be lectured by a US president who as a senator adopted a sympathetic stance towards the Irish Republican Army, and opposed the extradition of Irish terror suspects to face trial in the United Kingdom.

Biden’s predecessor, Donald Trump, was outspoken in his criticism of then prime minister Theresa May for what he saw as her weak handling of the Brexit negotiations. But he never made threats against Britain and always championed a free trade deal with the United Kingdom. Trump respected the democratic will of the British people to leave the European Union, and his instincts were profoundly pro-British and extremely supportive of the Special Relationship. Trump loathed the EU, and believed that the British people would be far better off completely freed of the shackles of the European Union.

Biden takes a very different approach to Trump when it comes to Europe and Brexit. He is a Eurofederalist at heart, who as vice president under Obama remarked in a speech before the European Parliament in 2010 that Brussels had a legitimate claim to be the “capital of the free world”. Biden has paid lip service in the past to the importance of the partnership with Britain, but he views the transatlantic alliance largely through the lens of the US/EU relationship, attaching great value to the Paris-Berlin-Brussels axis that has ruled continental Europe for the last few decades.

There should be a furious response in London to the Biden administration’s demands of the British government. President Biden needs to mind his own business. It is not his place to lecture the British Prime Minister and British officials about Northern Ireland and Brexit. Joe Biden should keep his sneering anti-British and anti-Brexit views to himself. At the G7 this week, Boris Johnson must stand up to Biden, and remind him that he, and not the US president, represents the democratic will of the British people.
330m yanks, 500m Europeans vs 60m odd brits, of whom, at most, only 17m want Brexit.
 

Cruimh

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There aren't 60 million eligible to vote in the UK, and most recently

As of May, 2021, 44 percent of people in Great Britain thought that it was wrong to leave the European Union, compared with 45 percent who thought it was the right decision
 

Franzoni

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Watched a bit if Question Time earlier but I had to turn it off as its everyone elses fault for not being more understanding and letting the little Englanders off the hook for signing something they didn't do their due diligence on .....

Only one person I heard called it out for what it was.. Johnson ignoring all the advice to 'Get Brexit Done ' in too short a timeframe when more time was on offer.....
 

seanof

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No - and after all there were even fewer eligible to vote in GB compared to the UK

But the point i was addressing was the misrepresentive suggestion that of 60 million only 17 Million supported Leave.
Ah, I see your point. 17 million voted for Brexit from a total electorate of about 47 million.
 

hollandia

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The ever brilliant James O'Brien, "if only someone had warned them"

Frankly, I'm shocked that the leaders of a primarily rules based organisation would blanch at another country being somewhat laissez-faire in respect of rule keeping.

I'm actually beginning to come to the conclusion that the UK has actually got no clue what the hell it signed at Christmas.
 

Cookiemonster

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Frankly, I'm shocked that the leaders of a primarily rules based organisation would blanch at another country being somewhat laissez-faire in respect of rule keeping.

I'm actually beginning to come to the conclusion that the UK has actually got no clue what the hell it signed at Christmas.
Many who voted for it admitted they'd not even read it... one assumed someone advising the PM had, but if they did he didn't listen to them. What's more interesting in why they didn't pay attention to what they were signing:
  • because they didn't think they had to. They drank their own Kool-Aid and believed that "they need us more than we need them"
  • they've never respected the EU as a rules-based organisation
  • they don't care about NI
  • Perfidious Albion isn't seen as a bad thing by the current feckess government of rouges, as they still believe the might of the Empire exists and they can simply bully their way to getting what they want
  • they are serviced by subservient yes men, nobody challenges their assumptions
All bodes well for trade and international relations with other nations.
 

Bonkers

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Frankly, I'm shocked that the leaders of a primarily rules based organisation would blanch at another country being somewhat laissez-faire in respect of rule keeping.

I'm actually beginning to come to the conclusion that the UK has actually got no clue what the hell it signed at Christmas.
They never had any intention of sticking to the deal imo.
 

ruserious

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Dec 4, 2018
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So she has articulated what everybody but the unionists knew.
If you were a committed brexiteer and wanted nothing to do with the EU, and were sound in the knowledge that a border poll is increasingly likely, it makes sense from their POV not to make ever lasting compromises in the form of EU alignment because of an NI that will likely be leaving the union soon enough.
 

im axeled

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The UK has not adopted a similar constructive attitude. On the contrary:

o The construction work of permanent Border Control Posts (BCPs) has been halted.

o The temporary facilities in place in Northern Ireland do not work to their full capacity
and have acute human resource problems.

o The traceability requirements agreed as part of the grace periods in December 2020
to ensure that the food products concerned are only sold to consumers in supermarkets in Northern Ireland are not complied with.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/s...
 

im axeled

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https://www.independent.co....
UK on the way of trade deals with Australia, India, Pacific, South America, Pacific, etc, which all have lower food standards.
"“The difficulty the government has is it doesn’t have a trade policy,” said David Bowles, head of public affairs at the RSPCA. “They need a trade policy so that not only do they show other countries before negotiations what their red lines are, but also to convince the public and business and farmers they’re not selling out those standards."
 

Franzoni

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They never had any intention of sticking to the deal imo.

Yep and didn't negotiate in good faith either.....

As other posters have pointed out it bodes well for their future trade deals........i'm wondering how long before we hear of smaller countries that have dealing with them saying they have been shafted .......
 

Franzoni

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Lovely piece from the Guardian that should be on the front page of every Tory paper.
What they said then and what they say now......
https://www.theguardian.com...

Comedy gold......

“It is wrong that anyone should be threatening the British sausage. We will stand up for the British sausage and no one will ever be able to destroy it.”

The bendy bananas got dragged back into the debate on QT last night as well......... :D
 

im axeled

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In truth, the NIP is just a number of clauses in the Brexit deal most Brexiteers championed a few months ago...

As David Schneider puts it, "the people saying the Northern Ireland protocol is ridiculous are the same people who negotiated it, signed up to it, fought an election built around it and sold it as an "oven-ready" triumph that would get Brexit done."
 

im axeled

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Boris Johnson, prime minister
What he said then: “It ensures for those living and working alongside the border that there will be no visible or practical changes to their lives: they can carry on as before.”
What he says now: “If it looks as though the EU is going to be very dogmatic about it and we continue to [be in an] absurd situation so you can’t bring in rose bushes with British soil into Northern Ireland, you can’t bring British sausages into Northern Ireland, then frankly I’m going to, we’ll have to take further steps.”

Iain Duncan Smith, former Tory leader
What he said then: “If there is anything about this arrangement [the withdrawal agreement bill] that we have not now debated, thrashed to death, I would love to know what it is.”
What he says now“The reality is that the protocol is simply not working. These are not teething problems. We have already seen companies that normally ship to Northern Ireland now saying publicly that they will not bother to do so any more if it is too difficult. We are also seeing diversion: some supermarkets and others are talking about depots in southern Ireland rather than in mainland GB.”

Andrew Bridgen, Conservative MP
What he said then: “If you had offered me what we’ve got here back in 2016 I wouldn’t have snapped your hand off, I’d have had your arms and your legs as well.”
What he says now: “It’s just clear the EU wants to annex Northern Ireland away from us, which is what they always wanted… Ultimately I think we’re being stitched up by the European Union and it’s had a very bad effect on the DUP - quite rightly.”
 

Franzoni

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So she has articulated what everybody but the unionists knew.

Unionists knew what the potential consequences were they just thought that they could get May and then Johnson and the ERG to force the EU into a hard land border which is what the people now running the DUP really wanted and then say it was our fault.....

Where the stupidity kicks in is they believed May when she sent her ministers on the the round the houses diplomacy jaunt during the Brexit negotiations to try and split countries off from the EU consensus on NI and it didn't work.......it seems BMW and Mercedes didn't really care about selling into the British market or have the clout to influnce German political opinion that the Brexiteers thought they would.....

In fairness to Cummings i think i remember him saying he would throw NI and Scotland off to get Brexit for England......i don't think he cared about Wales too much either as he never even mentioned them.........
 
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