A United Ireland in our lifetime?

bang bang

Member
Dec 5, 2018
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2000:-

Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams has predicted there could be a united Ireland in 16 years time.

"If we want to make progress then there is no reason whatsoever, no reason why we cannot celebrate the 1916 Rising in the year 2016, in a free and united Ireland."


2021:-

The former Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams said he thought there could be a united Ireland within the next 20 years.

Mr Adams, 72, was asked whether he would see a united Ireland if he lived to be 90.

"I would like to think so," he replied.



Somehow I can't see myself asking Mr Adams for the lotto numbers, mystic meg he an't...
Fair play Bridget, have you learned Ab
2000:-

Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams has predicted there could be a united Ireland in 16 years time.

"If we want to make progress then there is no reason whatsoever, no reason why we cannot celebrate the 1916 Rising in the year 2016, in a free and united Ireland."


2021:-

The former Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams said he thought there could be a united Ireland within the next 20 years.

Mr Adams, 72, was asked whether he would see a united Ireland if he lived to be 90.

"I would like to think so," he replied.



Somehow I can't see myself asking Mr Adams for the lotto numbers, mystic meg he an't...
Failte ar ais Bridget, have you learnt the words to Amhran na Bhfiann yet!😅
 

Prof Honeydew

Member
Nov 28, 2018
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The crux of this is that because Parliament is sovereign (one of the main talking points of pro-Brexit campaigners ironically), article 6 of the Act of Union has been effectively repealed by the Withdrawal Agreement.

This has political unionism in something of a tailspin right now as a fracture emerges between pragmatic and pro European unionism (advising a row back from the hard/ultra Brexit that causes the current difficulty) and the more idealogical brand of political unionism (who want their cake and eat it.)

It's going to be incredibly hard for idealogical unionism to square the circle of getting what they want in terms of the hardest of Brexits and retaining their place in the union because of the ramifications of their actions.
Being a political belief totally focused on a single negative objective, Unionism is nothing if not consistent. Anytime differences of opinion occur, it heads unerringly towards the lowest common denominator. There is only concept that can unite all of its different strands and that is an inability to accept that anyone else other than themselves matter in the Six Counties.

And when it comes down to it, the rock on which all Unionists who question the Herrenvolk doctrine perish are the thugs, hoodlums and bigots of the organisations they've created to keep the croppies down. And as long as the Brits use them as the cannon fodder for their imperialist fantasies, there's no incentive for Unionism to smell the coffee. As Donaldson and his predecessors have demonstrated, anyone with eyes on the top of the pile will have to doff the cap to the fanatics in the back seats of Cullybackey Orange Hall and the drug barons of Larne and the Shankill before they get there.
 
Nov 29, 2018
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This is a very long and very detailed thread on today's Northern Ireland Protocol judgement.

The crux of this is that because Parliament is sovereign (one of the main talking points of pro-Brexit campaigners ironically), article 6 of the Act of Union has been effectively repealed by the Withdrawal Agreement.

This has political unionism in something of a tailspin right now as a fracture emerges between pragmatic and pro European unionism (advising a row back from the hard/ultra Brexit that causes the current difficulty) and the more idealogical brand of political unionism (who want their cake and eat it.)

It's going to be incredibly hard for idealogical unionism to square the circle of getting what they want in terms of the hardest of Brexits and retaining their place in the union because of the ramifications of their actions.

Essentially Westminster trumps Stormont, end of.
 

Zen

Member
Dec 5, 2020
484
684
Essentially Westminster trumps Stormont, end of.
I may be off the mark here, but since the early 1970s, such matters were not devolved to Northern Ireland. As in, it's my understanding, prior to that, Unionism ran the place, which Westminster had put in place (and thought settled the Irish question from Westminsters viewpoint 50 years previously)
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
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Well well. On his first official day as DUP leader, Jeffrey Donaldson wakes up to find that Alex Easton, the north down MLA has resigned from the party and will sit as an independent.

 

ruserious

Member
Dec 4, 2018
5,138
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Well well. On his first official day as DUP leader, Jeffrey Donaldson wakes up to find that Alex Easton, the north down MLA has resigned from the party and will sit as an independent.

Doesn’t this make SF the largest party in the assembly now? - does that change things for the First Minister post?
 

hollandia

Literally knows shit
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Doesn’t this make SF the largest party in the assembly now? - does that change things for the First Minister post?
No. It's largest party post election. In a way, this is a good thing, as it's some insurance against the DUP pulling stormont down.
 
Last edited:

Seosamh

Member
Nov 29, 2018
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No. It's largest party post election. In a way, this is a good thing, as it's some insurance against the DUP pulling stormont down.
I'm not so sure of that...though I can see your reasoning, others may also see it so the point may well be moot...
 

CarlDoyle

Member
Feb 10, 2021
201
129
No. It's largest party post election. In a way, this is a good thing, as it's some insurance against the DUP pulling stormont down.
That has some weird effects. If a party splits, I wonder if the larger of the two pieces counts as the party for FM purposes. If 90% of a party resigns and forms a new one, can they count as "successor" party :).
 

Seosamh

Member
Nov 29, 2018
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Meanwhile, here is Jude's view of the case for persuading unionists...or not-

 
Oct 25, 2019
19
17
His constant reference to Catholic and Protestant betrays his lack of knowledge of the complexity of the situation in N. I.
You're right. It's not perfect in it's terminology but I just thought it was interesting to see a different point of view. He went more in depth than usual and at least tried to understand the complexities, but I take your point.
 
Reactions: ast

ast

Member
Dec 15, 2018
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Boogieland
You're right. It's not perfect in it's terminology but I just thought it was interesting to see a different point of view. He went more in depth than usual and at least tried to understand the complexities, but I take your point.

While watching that podcast, the tube did put an advert for an alternative history one by the same guy shown below, which i thought worthy of immediate attention.



Fair marks for trying, but the analysis left me too disappointed at the margins, even without any formal higher education schooling in History. Too much tabloid drumbeat at the expense of reasoning and research on the history of Europe, but it still made me think about a few things i hadn't beforehand.

Such as the anticipated post-war fun in the French Flanders, Wallonia and even the customary appreciation of things Prussian in my own little burgh. Or the likely internal stability matters in the continuity Habsburg empire. The main acquired take tough is just how much the UK would have been in a stronger economic and even geopolitical situation at the end of the war under the alternative hypothesis with the Central Powers war aims as pictured in the fixed image map for the video winning them only new expensive problems on top of the exhaustion from the war. I had already been thinking for a while that opting for feudal electoral institutions in the 1860s was the crucial reason for the demise of the British empire ever since, this new element entrenches the stance to scary certainty.

Furthermore i have been informally labeling the ideology dominating across the board during the buildup of WW1 as political empirism, and am at pains to perceive any outcomes but inefficiency and destructiveness there. It may even have conditioned the dynamics of the situation to the extent of turning the alternative hypothesis into alien space batting.

One moment in the presentation that did look right on the spot though was the take on the consequences in Ireland. Whereby i admit to insufficient insight to see through that any further, or to label the stated opinion anything but informal. But it does rescue the post from off-topic into peripheral interest to the topic.
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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His constant reference to Catholic and Protestant betrays his lack of knowledge of the complexity of the situation in N. I.

In the other video AST linked about the first world war the presenter makes reference to the ulster covenant and the the threats made by the UVF and Unionism at the time with the links to the British government
which in fairness shows a lot more understanding than that of many others in Britain about some of historical issues at the heart of the events of the last 100 years ...
 

Franzoni

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Nov 28, 2018
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I think this guy knows what's going on. Just came across him today and I thought his analysis was sound.

He seems to be one of the few who will broach the subject of potential migration of unionists in large numbers to England and Scotland after reunification and the possible political side effects around things like another referendum in Scotland etc....if a UI happened first....

He also says the title of the video should be changed to when and not if and correctly identifies the danger of the right wing and Conservative nature of many unionists and the possible impact on any region they might settle into in large numbers ....
 

ruserious

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Dec 4, 2018
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Strong rebuke on Keir Starmer after he claimed he would campaign for the North remaining in the UK.

 
Feb 19, 2019
542
638
Strong rebuke on Keir Starmer after he claimed he would campaign for the North remaining in the UK.

To get elected he needs votes specifically english and welsh votes. Saying he would support unification would leave him open to the 'No Surrender to the IRA' fucknuggets and the tory press would have a field day.

All of which should really remind everyone that the Establishment in Westminster don't care about NI at all. They aint chasing those votes.
 

ruserious

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Dec 4, 2018
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seanof

Member
Nov 27, 2018
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In this scenario, we could hardly have a worse Taoiseach than Martin, except maybe, Bruton.

The following is an edited version of the article for those who can't access it:

UK sets collision course with EU under plans to redraw Brexit deal

Peter Foster, George Parker and Mehreen Khan in Brussels

The UK will on Wednesday put itself on a collision course with Brussels by unveiling a new set of demands that would radically overhaul post-Brexit trading arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
In a move that officials called a “wholesale change of approach”, Lord David Frost, Cabinet Office minister, will outline a strategy that seeks to eliminate most of the checks on the Irish Sea trade border that came into force in January.
And in a warning that Britain could suspend the Northern Ireland protocol in its Brexit deal with the EU if the bloc does not give way, Frost will claim the UK is already within its rights to activate the Article 16 override clause in the agreement.
Boris Johnson on Tuesday discussed the UK strategy with Micheál Martin, his Irish counterpart — including proposals that would transform the way that the protocol currently operates.
“Johnson said that all GB-made goods should be able to go into Northern Ireland without checks,” said one EU official.
The new UK position is likely to infuriate Brussels. Under the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol agreed by Johnson in 2019 to avoid the return of a hard border on the island of Ireland, all goods shipped from Great Britain to the region must follow the EU’s rules for customs and agrifood products.
Frost has described the arrangements as “unsustainable”, telling MPs this week it was necessary to “hugely reduce or eliminate barriers” created by the protocol, which he said were deterring many Great Britain-based businesses from trading with Northern Ireland.
David Frost’s proposals would appear to directly contradict EU insistence that the bloc would not ‘undo the core of the [Northern Ireland] protocol’

Frost’s proposals are expected to include an “honesty box” approach, where companies that said their goods were destined only for sale and use in Northern Ireland should be exempted from checks on the Irish Sea border.
Britain also wants Brussels to agree to a dual-standards regime that would allow goods that conform to UK rules to circulate freely in Northern Ireland alongside EU-compliant products, so long as they were labelled as only for use in the region, according to people with knowledge of the proposals.
Another strand of the proposals is expected to seek to remove any role for the European Commission or the European Court of Justice in the operation of the Northern Ireland protocol.
The UK is also expected to argue the threshold to trigger the protocol’s Article 16 override mechanism has already been reached because of the impact on trade.

The government will not act immediately by triggering the mechanism, but reserve its right to do so, said the people familiar with the proposals.
Frost’s proposals would appear to directly contradict the EU’s insistence to the UK that the bloc would not “undo the core of the [Northern Ireland] protocol”.
Johnson on Tuesday told Martin that “the way the protocol is operating is causing significant disruption for the people in Northern Ireland”.
Downing Street said after the call between the two leaders that the UK would protect the Good Friday Agreement “in all its dimensions” — a reference to the need to command the consent of both unionist and nationalist communities.
The UK prime minister “said the EU must show pragmatism and solutions needed to be found to address the serious challenges that have arisen with the protocol”, added Downing Street.
Frost will brief the British parliament on Wednesday on the new UK strategy towards the protocol and on Tuesday spoke to Maros Sefcovic, commission vice-president responsible for EU relations with Britain.
“We are keen to see a constructive and consensual approach to resolve the outstanding issues with the protocol at pace, but it is clear to all that a wholesale change in approach is required to do that,” said one UK official.
Frost’s paper will set the scene for another round of highly charged talks with the EU ahead of a new series of deadlines on trading arrangements at the end of September.
At that point so called grace periods — temporary waivers on paperwork to smooth trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland — will expire on a number of products, including chilled meats.
 

Zen

Member
Dec 5, 2020
484
684
In this scenario, we could hardly have a worse Taoiseach than Martin, except maybe, Bruton.

The following is an edited version of the article for those who can't access it:

UK sets collision course with EU under plans to redraw Brexit deal

Peter Foster, George Parker and Mehreen Khan in Brussels

The UK will on Wednesday put itself on a collision course with Brussels by unveiling a new set of demands that would radically overhaul post-Brexit trading arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
In a move that officials called a “wholesale change of approach”, Lord David Frost, Cabinet Office minister, will outline a strategy that seeks to eliminate most of the checks on the Irish Sea trade border that came into force in January.
And in a warning that Britain could suspend the Northern Ireland protocol in its Brexit deal with the EU if the bloc does not give way, Frost will claim the UK is already within its rights to activate the Article 16 override clause in the agreement.
Boris Johnson on Tuesday discussed the UK strategy with Micheál Martin, his Irish counterpart — including proposals that would transform the way that the protocol currently operates.
“Johnson said that all GB-made goods should be able to go into Northern Ireland without checks,” said one EU official.
The new UK position is likely to infuriate Brussels. Under the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol agreed by Johnson in 2019 to avoid the return of a hard border on the island of Ireland, all goods shipped from Great Britain to the region must follow the EU’s rules for customs and agrifood products.
Frost has described the arrangements as “unsustainable”, telling MPs this week it was necessary to “hugely reduce or eliminate barriers” created by the protocol, which he said were deterring many Great Britain-based businesses from trading with Northern Ireland.
David Frost’s proposals would appear to directly contradict EU insistence that the bloc would not ‘undo the core of the [Northern Ireland] protocol’

Frost’s proposals are expected to include an “honesty box” approach, where companies that said their goods were destined only for sale and use in Northern Ireland should be exempted from checks on the Irish Sea border.
Britain also wants Brussels to agree to a dual-standards regime that would allow goods that conform to UK rules to circulate freely in Northern Ireland alongside EU-compliant products, so long as they were labelled as only for use in the region, according to people with knowledge of the proposals.
Another strand of the proposals is expected to seek to remove any role for the European Commission or the European Court of Justice in the operation of the Northern Ireland protocol.
The UK is also expected to argue the threshold to trigger the protocol’s Article 16 override mechanism has already been reached because of the impact on trade.

The government will not act immediately by triggering the mechanism, but reserve its right to do so, said the people familiar with the proposals.
Frost’s proposals would appear to directly contradict the EU’s insistence to the UK that the bloc would not “undo the core of the [Northern Ireland] protocol”.
Johnson on Tuesday told Martin that “the way the protocol is operating is causing significant disruption for the people in Northern Ireland”.
Downing Street said after the call between the two leaders that the UK would protect the Good Friday Agreement “in all its dimensions” — a reference to the need to command the consent of both unionist and nationalist communities.
The UK prime minister “said the EU must show pragmatism and solutions needed to be found to address the serious challenges that have arisen with the protocol”, added Downing Street.
Frost will brief the British parliament on Wednesday on the new UK strategy towards the protocol and on Tuesday spoke to Maros Sefcovic, commission vice-president responsible for EU relations with Britain.
“We are keen to see a constructive and consensual approach to resolve the outstanding issues with the protocol at pace, but it is clear to all that a wholesale change in approach is required to do that,” said one UK official.
Frost’s paper will set the scene for another round of highly charged talks with the EU ahead of a new series of deadlines on trading arrangements at the end of September.
At that point so called grace periods — temporary waivers on paperwork to smooth trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland — will expire on a number of products, including chilled meats.
A cheap cars salesman approach, doing wonders for global Britain. Frost is Delboy, just with a posh accent and no one in the EU or US, who matters, lap up this BS. Maybe Russia and China are better audiences
 

CarlDoyle

Member
Feb 10, 2021
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129
Downing Street said after the call between the two leaders that the UK would protect the Good Friday Agreement “in all its dimensions” — a reference to the need to command the consent of both unionist and nationalist communities.
I wonder if Martin agreed with that interpretation?

I mean quite probably he does think that, but really protecting the GFA "in all its dimensions" could mean anything.
 

ruserious

Member
Dec 4, 2018
5,138
4,881
I wonder if Martin agreed with that interpretation?

I mean quite probably he does think that, but really protecting the GFA "in all its dimensions" could mean anything.
Funny that consent wasn’t needed from both communities for Brexit itself.
 

ruserious

Member
Dec 4, 2018
5,138
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