A United Ireland in our lifetime?

hollandia

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Sadly you're right, but two wrongs don't make a right.

And the video below is a particularly sickening example of the way war can be marketed to poorly-educated Christians; but, more generally, it's also an example of what Chesterton styled 'easy speeches that comfort cruel men.

They don't however it somewhat throws a bit of shade on your not believing in democracy as it is invoked in needless wars.
 

Shaadi

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Feb 16, 2019
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Sadly you're right, but two wrongs don't make a right.

And the video below is a particularly sickening example of the way war can be marketed to poorly-educated Christians; but, more generally, it's also an example of what Chesterton styled 'easy speeches that comfort cruel men.


I think you'll find that it's the Well Educated that usually start the Wars and that they receive plenty of support from the Well Educated in their societies who know that Wars are very often prosecuted to maintain the wealth collecting hegemony that their elites base their own good fortunes on.
 

Harry Barmier

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May 9, 2019
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Yes to an united Ireland.Brexit I hope will speed and it up.It's strange that so many EUrophiles that are giving up their sovereignty may get it ,sort of.Strange that loyalists that voted for Brexit may lose their illusion that six counties of Ireland are British.Another factor that many people forget is that England will become independent.The fun never ends.😊😈
 

Derryman

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I think you'll find that it's the Well Educated that usually start the Wars and that they receive plenty of support from the Well Educated in their societies who know that Wars are very often prosecuted to maintain the wealth collecting hegemony that their elites base their own good fortunes on.
To coin a phrase old rich men make war young poor men fight them.
 
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Yes to an united Ireland.Brexit I hope will speed and it up.It's strange that so many EUrophiles that are giving up their sovereignty may get it ,sort of.Strange that loyalists that voted for Brexit may lose their illusion that six counties of Ireland are British.Another factor that many people forget is that England will become independent.The fun never ends.😊😈

English is not your first language, obviously.
 

ruserious

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Dec 4, 2018
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Even if minorities are in the military, they are outnumbered in every military base rendering them ineffective in deterring tyranny. It would be hard for them to defect and they would be mistaken for the enemy by fellow minorities due to the uniform they have on. Ideally minorities would have their own military bases, their own uniform and their own recruitment procedures in proportion to the democratic mandate that they have received.
 

hollandia

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Nesbitt said Northern Ireland has "moved on hugely from being a sectarian place, but I don't think the politics has moved on from being sectarian".


On this I largely agree with him.
It is time for new politics and politicians.
Well, elections will be the test of that. And I think the recent euros and locals were an opening salvo in that regard.
 

Firefly123

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Nov 27, 2018
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Nesbitt said Northern Ireland has "moved on hugely from being a sectarian place, but I don't think the politics has moved on from being sectarian".


On this I largely agree with him.
It is time for new politics and politicians.
While I am also open to unity on mutual terms that respect all I seriously doubt loyalism and the DUP will engage as it is an all or nothing approach from them. Either we dominate or we burn it all down and anyone who attempts to compromise is immediately a lundy.
No doubt He will be accused of such lundyism by the usuals.

Arlene has already said she will leave the north in the event of unity and she's probably one of the milder ones in her party.

Perhaps when the writing is really on the wall pragmatism will kick in.
 

Derryman

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While I am also open to unity on mutual terms that respect all I seriously doubt loyalism and the DUP will engage as it is an all or nothing approach from them. Either we dominate or we burn it all down and anyone who attempts to compromise is immediately a lundy.
No doubt He will be accused of such lundyism by the usuals.

Arlene has already said she will leave the north in the event of unity and she's probably one of the milder ones in her party.

Perhaps when the writing is really on the wall pragmatism will kick in.

It might be more wishful than hopeful , but sometimes I sense a change in this. But not from the DUP.
 

hollandia

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While I am also open to unity on mutual terms that respect all I seriously doubt loyalism and the DUP will engage as it is an all or nothing approach from them. Either we dominate or we burn it all down and anyone who attempts to compromise is immediately a lundy.
No doubt He will be accused of such lundyism by the usuals.

Arlene has already said she will leave the north in the event of unity and she's probably one of the milder ones in her party.

Perhaps when the writing is really on the wall pragmatism will kick in.
Its possible that the dup will have little or no say in the matter. Signs are that electoral patterns are under serious threat.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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Pragmatic unionists need to vote for an alternative to the DUP, a party that better represents their interests.

i can't believe all unionists would choose economic disaster over a union that will throw them under the bus. a hard-core, yes. But all? No.
 

NMunsterman

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Pragmatic unionists need to vote for an alternative to the DUP, a party that better represents their interests.

i can't believe all unionists would choose economic disaster over a union that will throw them under the bus. a hard-core, yes. But all? No.

Bear in mind that one of the Mods on this Forum sees Ireland as re-joining the UK as the only possible Re-United Ireland that he will ever accept.

And that was part of a question as to which form of an independent Re-United Ireland would you accept - and he dismissed every single available independent option - and came up with his own.:rolleyes:


That's the mentality we're dealing with.
 

Derryman

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Pragmatic unionists need to vote for an alternative to the DUP, a party that better represents their interests.

i can't believe all unionists would choose economic disaster over a union that will throw them under the bus. a hard-core, yes. But all? No.
In my more optimistic moods, I like to believe this also.
 

Bonkers

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Feb 15, 2019
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Bear in mind that one of the Mods on this Forum sees Ireland as re-joining the UK as the only possible Re-United Ireland that he will ever accept.

And that was part of a question as to which form of an independent Re-United Ireland would you accept - and he dismissed every single available independent option - and came up with his own.:rolleyes:


That's the mentality we're dealing with.
Who?
 

hollandia

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Evidently, some of the Mods are rather touchy about naming other posters.....so I won't.
But it begins with a "C".....and there's a "h" in there too.
The mods aren't touchy about any such thing. Being abusive, however is a very different matter.
 

Firefly123

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Bear in mind that one of the Mods on this Forum sees Ireland as re-joining the UK as the only possible Re-United Ireland that he will ever accept.

And that was part of a question as to which form of an independent Re-United Ireland would you accept - and he dismissed every single available independent option - and came up with his own.:rolleyes:


That's the mentality we're dealing with.
And he is entitled to hold that view. It is up to us all to show that that isn't the only way and at the end of the day the prize is unity not a chance to gloat over themmuns.

If unionists had kept their eye on the union prize instead of gloating over themmuns then chances are the north would have been a much nicer place and the majority would be happy enough. Unfortunately for them the urge to be the big cheese won out and look at them now.

It's a lesson all nationalists should learn from.
 

NMunsterman

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And he is entitled to hold that view. It is up to us all to show that that isn't the only way and at the end of the day the prize is unity not a chance to gloat over themmuns.

If unionists had kept their eye on the union prize instead of gloating over themmuns then chances are the north would have been a much nicer place and the majority would be happy enough. Unfortunately for them the urge to be the big cheese won out and look at them now.

It's a lesson all nationalists should learn from.
100% agreed.
Hardline Unionists are fully entitled to hold such hard-line views. However, I will challenge hardline Unionists every time, especially those trying to masquerade as progressives and liberals.

I have zero interest in lording it over Unionists in the Re-United Ireland - and that certainly is the case for the vast majority of people in Ireland - but I'll call a hard-line Unionist a hard-line Unionist every time - and challenge these hard-line views.
 
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Mar 1, 2019
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100% agreed.
Hardline Unionists are fully entitled to hold such hard-line views. However, I will challenge hardline Unionists every time, especially those trying to masquerade as progressives and liberals.
I dunno about the hard-line thing. From where I'm sitting it looks like you don't hold nationalists to the same standard as unionists when it comes to their constitutional preferences.

By definition, a unionist is someone who will choose union of UI or independence. Nationalist will equally choose UI over union or independence. (Understandably, pretty much nobody likes the idea of independence it seems). It is not a contradiction to be a unionist and a liberal or progressive. And there are no shortages of conservative nationalists.

Simply suggesting that the only UI you'd like to see is a UI within the UK is a perfectly acceptable, and in many ways, logical position for a unionist to hold. The fact that the vast majority in Ireland recoil from the idea like a vampire on a garlic farm means it is impractical, but hard-line? It's no more hard line than saying the only UI you'll accept is within a sovereign all-Ireland entity - which is very widely held.

The difference between the two is that former hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of happening - and the DUP and other Brexiteers have done a fabulous job in the past 4 years of ensuring that - and the latter is far more difficult than it should be, and SF's previous incarnation did a fabulous job in ensuring that.
 

hollandia

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A ui won't be won by nationalism. It will be won by nationalism bringing a significant proportion of others along with them. That requires some tough political choices for all involved.

That is if brexit doesn't render all this moot by reducing the north to absolute penury.
 

NMunsterman

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I dunno about the hard-line thing. From where I'm sitting it looks like you don't hold nationalists to the same standard as unionists when it comes to their constitutional preferences.

By definition, a unionist is someone who will choose union of UI or independence. Nationalist will equally choose UI over union or independence. (Understandably, pretty much nobody likes the idea of independence it seems). 1. It is not a contradiction to be a unionist and a liberal or progressive. And there are no shortages of conservative nationalists.

2. Simply suggesting that the only UI you'd like to see is a UI within the UK is a perfectly acceptable, and in many ways, logical position for a unionist to hold. The fact that the vast majority in Ireland recoil from the idea like a vampire on a garlic farm means it is impractical, but hard-line? It's no more hard line than saying the only UI you'll accept is within a sovereign all-Ireland entity - which is very widely held.

The difference between the two is that former hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of happening - and the DUP and other Brexiteers have done a fabulous job in the past 4 years of ensuring that - and the latter is far more difficult than it should be, and SF's previous incarnation did a fabulous job in ensuring that.

1. No contradiction to be a Unionist and liberal and progressive - agreed totally - and there were a few such posters on P.ie at some point who would have fitted that bill - but my point is that "Cruimh" is very definitely not one of them.

2. Simply suggesting that the only UI you'd like to see is a UI within the UK is a perfectly acceptable, and in many ways, logical position for a unionist to hold.

Hmmmm...bit irrelevant though when the question that is asked is what kind of independent UI do you want.
Yeah, sure, hardline Unionists can keep beating that drum - but the fact is that Unionists are now below 50% in the North and possibly looking at south of 40% at some point post-Brexit - meaning that the "No Surrender" strategy is not going to solve the various severe challenges facing Unionism.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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A ui won't be won by nationalism. It will be won by nationalism bringing a significant proportion of others along with them. That requires some tough political choices for all involved.
Very much in agreement with this. Nationalism will have to be very gracious victors. Unionist culture is a part of Irish culture, and will be a recognised part of the culture of a UI. There's no way around that. I can see there unionist culture and regions becoming something akin to the Gaeltacht. It might stick in some people's throats, but A UI has to be a UI, it can't exclude people and cultures already established on the island.

That is if brexit doesn't render all this moot by reducing the north to absolute penury.
Penury wouldn't render the question moot, bankrupting the NI will ultimately be what brings about a UI. It shouldn't be that way, but it will. I don't believe the DUP will settle for a UI in any other situation. A UI would be the very last choice.

I just hope it doesn't go that far.
 

hollandia

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Very much in agreement with this. Nationalism will have to be very gracious victors. Unionist culture is a part of Irish culture, and will be a recognised part of the culture of a UI. There's no way around that. I can see there unionist culture and regions becoming something akin to the Gaeltacht. It might stick in some people's throats, but A UI has to be a UI, it can't exclude people and cultures already established on the island.



Penury wouldn't render the question moot, bankrupting the NI will ultimately be what brings about a UI. It shouldn't be that way, but it will. I don't believe the DUP will settle for a UI in any other situation. A UI would be the very last choice.

I just hope it doesn't go that far.
That's what I meant. An economic mess would make it fait accompli.
 

NMunsterman

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Very much in agreement with this. Nationalism will have to be very gracious victors. Unionist culture is a part of Irish culture, and will be a recognised part of the culture of a UI. There's no way around that. I can see there unionist culture and regions becoming something akin to the Gaeltacht. It might stick in some people's throats, but A UI has to be a UI, it can't exclude people and cultures already established on the island.



Penury wouldn't render the question moot, bankrupting the NI will ultimately be what brings about a UI. It shouldn't be that way, but it will. 2. I don't believe the DUP will settle for a UI in any other situation. A UI would be the very last choice.

I just hope it doesn't go that far.

1. True.

2. Truly the ultimate paradox is the DUP voting for Brexit in order to try to save their Union - whilst in actual fact Brexit is acting as a catalyst for that very result.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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2. Truly the ultimate paradox is the DUP voting for Brexit in order to try to save their Union - whilst in actual fact Brexit is acting as a catalyst for that very result.
This is why I think the DUP are doomed. It's only a matter of sooner or later.

You mightn't like them, but you can't blame the DUP in not working on behalf the interests of nationalists. That's not their mandate. But, by allying themselves with pro-Brexit factions in Westminster, they allied themselves with factions that don't give a damn about unionists in NI, and for that th DUP can be blamed. They were not working in the interests of their own constituents and damaged the welfare of NI unionists.

The north desperately needs an alternative unionist party. I'm no fan of unionism, but I'm not niave enough to believe that a large percentage of unionists will vote for a "non-unionist" party, but unionists deserve a party that will look after their economic and cultural interests more effectively than the DUP.
 
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Derryman

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This is why I think the SUP are doomed. It's only a matter of sooner or later.

You mightn't like them, but you can't blame the DUP in not working on behalf the interests of nationalists. That's not their mandate. But, by allying themselves with pro-Brexit factions in Westminster, they allied themselves with factions that don't give a damn about unionists in NI, and for that th DUP can be blamed. They were not working in the interests of their own constituents and damaged the welfare of NI unionists.

The north desperately needs an alternative unionist party. I'm no fan of unionism, but I'm not niave enough to believe that a large percentage of unionists will vote for a "non-unionist" party, but unionists deserve a party that will look after their economic and cultural interests more effectively than the DUP.
UIIUUP
 
Mar 1, 2019
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Neither does he believe that a united Ireland is inevitable.

“What will come will come but I am not a doom-gloom merchant, saying it is around the corner,” he says.

“The only thing that will take us into a united Ireland is a vote of the majority of the people. As a democrat, I’ll accept that. I’m not going to go to war over it,” he says. He believes “backstops will come and go” but little will change as a consequence of Brexit or negotiations.
Surprisingly un-no-surrenderish from Mervyn Gibson, Grand Sec of the Orange Order.


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/we-are-not-going-to-be-bribed-out-of-the-united-kingdom-orange-order-chief-1.3951739?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/we-are-not-going-to-be-bribed-out-of-the-united-kingdom-orange-order-chief-1.3951739
 

NMunsterman

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Feb 18, 2019
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Can't read the full article as it's behind a Firewall - but does Mervyn Gibson give any idea as to whether he'll be staying in Ireland after Re-Unification or will he be "doing an Arlene". ?
 

AhNowStop

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Feb 15, 2019
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Can't read the full article as it's behind a Firewall - but does Mervyn Gibson give any idea as to whether he'll be staying in Ireland after Re-Unification or will he be "doing an Arlene". ?
He was on the radio last week saying he would find it very difficult to stay .... He'll be badly missed :rolleyes: lol
 
Mar 6, 2019
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I thought this was interesting. According to a new economic study the annual subvention for N.Ireland is £9.2 billion (not 10,12 or the other increasingly inflated amounts bandied about). Of this £9.2 billion approximately £1 billion is the North's contribution to UK defense, another £1 billion is the North's contribution to UK debt. Altogether some £2.2 billion of the £9.2 billion would not need to be replaced by the Irish government following a possible unification (as the article mentions further savings are possible by reducing the inevitable duplication in the public services North and South, especially in the civil service). Clearly an approx. £7 billion bill for the Irish exchequer is not negligible, but clearly much more achievable than the usual £10 billion figure commentators lazily use
 

ruserious

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Dec 4, 2018
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I thought this was interesting. According to a new economic study the annual subvention for N.Ireland is £9.2 billion (not 10,12 or the other increasingly inflated amounts bandied about). Of this £9.2 billion approximately £1 billion is the North's contribution to UK defense, another £1 billion is the North's contribution to UK debt. Altogether some £2.2 billion of the £9.2 billion would not need to be replaced by the Irish government following a possible unification (as the article mentions further savings are possible by reducing the inevitable duplication in the public services North and South, especially in the civil service). Clearly an approx. £7 billion bill for the Irish exchequer is not negligible, but clearly much more achievable than the usual £10 billion figure commentators lazily use
Don’t forget that the U.K. would maintain responsibility for pensions earned by NI public servants.

These are the details that need to be looked at now to build a knowledge base on how to successfully build a new Ireland.
 

midlander12

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Dec 4, 2018
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Some, yes; but most, no.

As the 'Successor-State to the UK Ireland will obtain ownership of all public lands and buildings and similarly will take over the responsibility for most of the public pension liabilities.
Yes you would assume so. I very much doubt that the UK paid the pensions of Irish civil servants who retired in the 1920's. Even if they did, the liabilities would have been infinitesmal compared to the enormous public sector that the United state will be inheriting from NI. I presume there would have to be some agreement about the transfer of the existing pension schemes and funds to the new State, but it's difficult to imagine that pensions of public servants who retire post-unification would be paid out of the UK exchequer. Those who retire beforehand - I presume theirs would continue to be paid by the UK.
 
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